In this episode, AJ and Mike break down derivatives: what they are, who gets to write them, and how authors can avoid pitfalls with respect to the original content. With over 20 derivatives from their books, they are more than qualified to break it down! They also give an update (and a sneaky spoiler) about the book they’re currently writing together.
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Episode 57 “All About Book Derivatives”
Mike Michalowicz: Welcome back to the Don't Write That Book Podcast, where you canlearn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship. Follow along with us as we give you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts, myself, Mike Michalowicz and AJ Harper. So this is going to be request-fest this episode, next episode. Uh, I told you Bruce, uh, is filming a movie.
AJ Harper: Your pal Bruce?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Springsteen is filming in Uh, Mountain Lakes. So they, renting, they're renting a house to be his house that he grew up in, like to emulate that.
AJ Harper: For a video?
Mike Michalowicz: No, a movie.
AJ Harper: A movie?
Mike Michalowicz: It's a, his biography. So there's an actor acting as him, he's coming and just observing and giving feedback.
AJ Harper: Hmm.
Mike Michalowicz: And so I pulled in here into Boonton and one block up is the Elks Lodge. That's where I park. I have a pass for the Elks Lodge and there's a big sign up. It says catering, but they have these distinct yellow signs. So, you know, it's the movie and I'm an aficionado now because they filmed at Jules. Have you seen the movie Jules?
AJ Harper: No.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, it was filmed at two. Well, one actually one road over from where I live.
AJ Harper: I mean,
Mike Michalowicz: It's a crashed UFO.
AJ Harper: Okay.
Mike Michalowicz: Ben Kingsley.
AJ Harper: That’s probably why I haven’t seen it.
Mike Michalowicz: And, uh, it was funny as we drive to work and, uh. There's a UFO there, so I'm like, I'm weird, I didn't see a UFO. And then I saw the catering and all that stuff behind it, and sure enough, they had assembled a full staged UFO. It was pretty cool.
AJ Harper: I have, we have movies filming in Nyack all the time.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, well, Nyack's perfect for movies.
AJ Harper: Yeah, and then there is a, um, there's a guy who is a, um, location scout. Who lives in Nyack. And sometimes I think--
Mike Michalowicz: A little biased, you think?
AJ Harper: Yeah, I think he, uh, he was on Orange is the New Black. And not far from Nyack, in Orangeburg, where the kids play soccer.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Is this abandoned psych institution. (Oh!) It's so spooky. And I, they filmed a lot of Orange is the New Black.
Mike Michalowicz: That's perfect.
AJ Harper: Yeah. But you kind of, you know, I always wondered, I wanted to ask him, I
never got the nerve up.
I was at a barbecue where he was one time at to say, did you see that when you were going to
get your kid to soccer? Is that, is that how you figured it out?
Mike Michalowicz: You know, that's an interesting job.
AJ Harper: It is an interesting job. All right, here we go.
Mike Michalowicz: Today we're gonna talk about book derivatives. And, uh, this is
something I have a lot of experience with now.
Uh, for three books we have derivatives that have been produced and I'll tell you the pros and
cons. I do want to thank our listeners for joining us on today's episode. This is episode 57.
AJ Harper: It's episode 57 and I did, uh, did you know that two weeks ago was the one-year
anniversary of launching the podcast?
Mike Michalowicz: Was it really? It must be if we're doing one a week.
AJ Harper: So I had Sadé put up a post on my LinkedIn about it, and you should see the
comments, my favorite podcast, I don't miss an episode, I binge this.
Mike Michalowicz: We have bingers. So I turned, uh, a friend onto this, his name's Peter
Laughter. He's like, I'm thinking about writing a book, any, any resources you suggest?
I said, check out DWTB and he texts me back maybe a day later, he's like, I listen to every
episode. I'm like, How's that even possible? Like it's been one day and there's now 57
episodes, but he's like I can't stop binging this thing. I love that!
AJ Harper: He must be that person who can bend time and space
Mike Michalowicz: Or he listens at 2x That's the hack.
AJ Harper: Yeah, that is the bending time and time hack.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. All right I'm joined in studio by my colleague my friend my co-
writer. My co-host, her name is AJ Harper. She's an author, I don't talk enough about your
book.
AJ Harper: You do. You're so nice.
Mike Michalowicz: I do? Oh, Write a Must-Read. I just heard, who was it? Someone who's
an aspiring author and just read your book and said, Holy cow.
And what was so interesting is that I don't think I need to read it. Like, I think I know enough.
And I read it and said, my God, it's the Bible. It really is for authors. It is the best book.
(Thank you.) You're welcome. It is truly the best book in the space because it's, it gives you
the practical how to not just the theory, but the application.
So. You're welcome.
AJ Harper: Thank you.
Mike Michalowicz: You're welcome.
AJ Harper: I appreciate it. Comes on paperback next year.
Mike Michalowicz: All right. That's right. All right. So let's dig into it. Um, derivatives. Let
first let's define what a book derivative is and how I define it is because other people define
different ways is an established book that then has variance of it. And how we do it and it
doesn't have to be this way is for different communities to consume it. So I'll give you best
explained by example the Pumpkin Plan. The Pumpkin Plan is for the general small business
audience on how to grow a business healthily and organically Dave Kava and Sean Walsh
reached out to me and said, we see a lot of people in the MSP space doing The Pumpkin Plan.
Now, what I've done is build a certification organization with, in this case, Donna Lyons for
the pumpkin plan. And I do it for most of the books. And they are certified coaches,
strategists is the term we use. They are teaching this to MSPs, and they said, you know what?
We're taking the core concept of the pumpkin plan but modifying stuff.
There's a wish list, client interview. They said, there are certain tweaks you can make when
you serve specifically it providers. So they, they taken The Pumpkin Plan and modified it in
execution. And they said, we'd like to write a book about it. And that's how the derivative
came about for The Pumpkin Plan.
They take the core concepts. And then they extend them or modify them to cater to the IT
industry. And now it becomes The Pumpkin Plan for IT providers, or MSPs in this case. So
that's what a derivative is.
AJ Harper: Yeah, and in this case, they're writing it versus say, if you wanted Five Love
Languages for Teens, or Five Love Languages for so and so, the author could still be doing
their own derivatives. But in your case other authors are writing these books.
Mike Michalowicz: Let's distinguish a derivative and I don't know what the other term is. I
want to hear what you call it.
AJ Harper: I I don't I'm sure there's an official term, but I'll be frank with you. I don't know
what it is.
Mike Michalowicz: Well, here's what I want to ask.
So the Five Love Languages for teens. I would consider a derivative because it takes a core
concept and for community. That same author wrote The Five Appreciation Languages. It's
for office communication and it's, it's a modification of the Five Love Languages. Would you
consider that a derivative?
No. Yeah. So what would be the title for that variant extension? Just an art new book.
AJ Harper: Well, I don't know. You know what, that is, you stumped me. I don't know that,
what you would call that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: If it were in TV, it would be a spinoff.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, there you go. That's right.
AJ Harper: So maybe we should just, we'll call them spinoffs for now.
Mike Michalowicz: I wonder if it's considered an episodic or, I shared and I can't remember
what the term was, on Amazon, where you— (Series.) Series. I wonder if it's considered a
series.
AJ Harper: Uh, well, a series is usually I mean, you're using series in the terms of a book
catalog, but a traditional series in fiction is books in a sequence.
Mike Michalowicz: Sequence, yes. So Star Wars 1, 2, 3.
AJ Harper: Yeah. Okay. Or if you count like George Lucas, Star Wars 4, 5, 6. Right, right.
1, 2, 3. 1, 2, 3.
Mike Michalowicz: 7, 8,
AJ Harper: 9.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. And then ironically, the 4, 5, 6 were the best. So there you
go.
AJ Harper: I mean.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. So how I came up with the book derivatives. Was very simple. I
saw executed very well in the business space by Michael Gerber.
So the E Myth I saw Michael Gerber present Oh, this goes back maybe 30 years ago and I
just made a mental note. I was sitting there, I was in an audience and it was, it was EO,
entrepreneurs organization. We were a small chapter in New Jersey. We maybe had 20
members at the time, and he was the big presenter for us that year and he came in.
So first I'm all inspired. I'm Michael Gerber's here and he's like shook his hand. He's right in
front of me. I'm like, I cannot believe someone of his celebrity-ship, if you will, stature, is in
the room. And then he says, I want to tell you guys something. He goes, I wrote the E Myth
specifically to be E Mythable.
I'm like, I, what do you mean? He goes, this book, um, I teach about systemization effectively
and not working in your business, but on your business, he goes, everything you do has to be,
you have to consider this McDonald's model in the, in the E myth approach. So when I wrote
this book, I wrote it specifically, um, knowing that someone could make a derivative of, and I
don't know if that's the word he used of it.
And then he revealed he has, there's E Myth for Dentists. There's E Myth for Real Estate
agents. I'm like, Oh my gosh. And what he did was all of them have his name. So it says E
Myth for Dentists by Michael Gerber. And then there's a coauthor of somebody else. I made a
mental note. I was like, I just remember the mental note, by the way, was, wow, that's
remarkable.
Fast forward. When I got the first inquiry about Profit First being able to specialize it for an
industry, I can't remember who it was. That's a shame. Oh, it was Cindy Thomason was the
first one. She goes, you know, I'm modifying it for, for the e commerce industry. Is that
okay? And I say, that's more than okay.
I think we can make a, a book out of this. And, and E Myth came back to me. Here's one
thing I remembered. I read some of those E Myth books and some of them stunk. So there
was E Myth for Dentists and it was like, it was not a good read. It was not like E Myth at all.
And then there was another one that was a pretty good read, but I assumed every one was
written by Michael Gerber.
I'm like, God, they got the volatility in this guy's writing is bizarre. So that's when I decided,
you know what, I gotta be very careful about putting my name, so it's not Profit First by Mike
Michalowicz and Cindy Thomason. It's Profit First by Cindy Thomason, period, foreword by
Mike Michalowicz.
AJ Harper: Yeah, smart. You can’t control it.
Mike Michalowicz: And you can't, cannot control it. And we've, you and I've made a
Herculean effort. Herculean, I don't know if that's the right choice of words, but we've made a
significant effort to control the content. And you can only do so much when someone owns
the rights to the book. We'll talk about how you do that.
They own the rights, and they may choose to write it their own way. That's, that's kind of the
idea. And some of them may shirk, I think, the responsibility of a writer.
AJ Harper: Mm hmm.
Mike Michalowicz: And there is some Profit First book out there that I am not proud of.
That I'm not proud that are in circulation. Yeah, that's pretty bold.
Yeah, look at the face you're making.
AJ Harper: I'm thinking, do you want to say this right now?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. No, I do. I do. Because I'm not going to pick certain ones, but
there's certain Profit First books out there that, um, that does not represent the brand the way I
hoped they'd be represented. So I'm kind of happy. My name's not directly associated with it,
but it does influence me.
So here's another little story and I'm not going to say names. Literally last week I was on a
massive speaking tour, ping pong around the country. I was somewhere and a person comes
up to me and goes, Profit First for, they say that's title and I'm like, Oh, here it comes. They're
like, That, that's not you. That's not good. And I'm like, no, it's not. I know exactly what
you're talking about. Now, that was the, that's the face you're making. That was the exception
to what I've experienced.
AJ Harper: Wow.
Mike Michalowicz: The majority are, wow. I'm going to give you the other extreme. So
that's one extreme. The other extreme was, and you've heard the story, I'm at an event for e
commerce providers.
I'm the, the keynote, closing speaker. I decide, and I do this at many events, I'll go in prior.
To me speaking, I'll sit in the audience just to observe because it's nice to make reference to
other speakers. It's nice to get a sense for what the audience is vibing on and not, so you can
modify your speech.
Well, it's e commerce providers and Cindy Thomason is out also at this event. I go, I sit down
and it's like a room of a thousand people. And I'm like, And during the break, one guy, he
elbows me. He's like, Hey, I haven't seen you before. He's like, uh, you a member here? I
said, Oh no, no, no, no. He goes, what are you here?
And I'm about to say, I'm about to speak at the end. Right? So he goes, Oh, he goes, Oh dude,
he goes, whatever you do, you gotta see this author of Profit First. Right? So now my ego
starts to go, huh? I'm about to surprise. Like this guy is about to soil his pantaloons. And so,
um, I'm about to say, well, matter of fact, I'm the author of Profit First, he goes, dude, you
gotta see the author of Profit First.
This woman, Cindy Thomason, right?
AJ Harper: I love this story. As he says
Mike Michalowicz: this, my ego, my big, fat, smelly, stinking, pantaloon ego goes, like a
balloon deflating. And I'm like, it's like inside, right? And I hit this rock bottom. This is all
within milliseconds. And you can just see the smile on his face and he's like, this is going to
rock.
And then all of a sudden I felt this fulfillment, like this release, I was like, this is my dream.
Like Profit First is beyond me, it's beyond me and you. It's now in the ether. It's, it's, it's
serving communities. It's extending beyond us. And Cindy is part of that.
AJ Harper: For sure. She's still killing it.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh my God. It's such a good spokesperson for it. So maybe we can talk
about some ways to control the quality derivatives.
AJ Harper: ‘Cause I do know a lot about that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Cause we do have a bummer or two out there, but we got a lot of
rock stars.
AJ Harper: A lot of them went through my class. So that's how I can talk about it. And
currently I have, um, uh, Fix This Next for Real Estate Investing.
Scott is in my current cohort.
Mike Michalowicz: Profit First for Real Estate Investing.
AJ Harper: There's also no, no, no. Fix This Next for Real Estate Investing. Is currently
being written in my cohort, but David Richter did write Profit First for Real Estate Investing.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. That's why I'm confused. And then Damon wrote it Profit First
for Real Estate.
AJ Harper: Realtors. Yeah. I've also had Profit First for Restaurants. Kasey, Kasey Anton,
Profit First for Minority Business Enterprises.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: Suzanne Mariga.
Mike Michalowicz: Which is a great book. Photographers, by Venus Michaels
AJ Harper: Venus Michaels, Profit First for Photographers
Mike Michalowicz: Did you work with Barbara Stackhouse for dentists?
AJ Harper: I did not.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. That's a great book
AJ Harper: Profit First for um, Oh god, I’m gonna forget them. I'm gonna have to we did we
listed a bunch so I’m gonna have to pull them all out of my brain. Also Fix This Next for
Health Care Providers.
Mike Michalowicz: Yep.
AJ Harper: Yep. And I'm not, I'm going to have to, Oh, Profit First for Therapists, Julie
Harris.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh my God. It’s such a good book.
AJ Harper: It's such a good book and she's killing it. Killing it. She,
Mike Michalowicz: I think she may have had the best launch, uh, to date.
AJ Harper: She's broken her, all of her goals.
Mike Michalowicz: So Cindy Thomas. And so we had our 10-year anniversary for Profit
First Professionals last September, which is only as of this recording, like three months ago.
And. They surprised me.
AJ Harper: Yeah, with the, with the book tree and I was supposed to be there.
Mike Michalowicz: So it's here in the office now, but Cindy brought this tree, this metal tree
that she had created and they took every single derivative book. They put a magnet on it so
you could attach on, they started reading off. I think we're like 22 or 23 books some in
process some complete, most completed.
Um, it's been an amazing journey. I want you to one more thing that I want to go into the
process of making a great book. Um, one of the big conversations I had to have was and
continues to be with Penguin because Profit First, I wrote with Penguin, Fix This Next, I
wrote with Penguin and The Pumpkin Plan, wrote with Penguin.
All three of those books have derivatives and the concern Penguin voiced was when a
derivative is created that it doesn't compete with or threaten the existing book. So Profit First
has sold, knock on wood, very well. And then when I spoke with Noah over there, he said,
Mike, no problem with doing derivatives. You're not the first. They said, but if the book
cover looks the same or can cause confusion, we're not going to permit it, which I thought
was very interesting. And I said, what's the logic behind it? I said, we don't want the
consumer having any confusion. We want them to clearly know this is an adjunct or an
extension of, but not in replacement.
I said, okay. Okay. They said the second thing is we want you to lock in on industry verticals
because those are distinguished categories and won't detract from the core book necessarily.
It will be an extension of it. So one interesting thing was with Suzanne Mariga's book, which
was Profit First for my small business, no for Minority Business Owners.
That one, there was a lot of discussion with Penguin on does that represent a threat to the core
book because the core book can serve minority business owners and does it, does... Is it too
much of an overlap? So those were the two defining categories. Once we had the derivative
cover design, which is distinct and different from the, the original book, all of the derivative
books have the exact same design.
They wanted, they strongly suggested the consistency in the design in that all the derivatives
are the same. They said, once you have momentum, you want to have all these derivatives the
same. The last thing I want to share is of the, let's say there's 20 books in circulation. Now
that's not the exact numbers number.
It's between 15 and 20 and there's a lot more in queue of these books. Um, Half the authors
have sold over 10, 000 units, which is significant.
AJ Harper: Yeah, that puts them in the top 2 percent of authors, period.
Mike Michalowicz: Period. Right. Which is amazing. They, well, we'll go to the financial
parameters in a little bit, but, but that those negotiations with Penguin were very important.
The interesting thing too, is every derivative that is considered afterwards, I still go back to
Penguin to get title approval. They, they still want to make sure that we're not threatening. So
we're on. We're just finalizing a contract for another, uh, derivative book for, I think it's Profit
First now.
And, uh, sure enough, I have to go back to Penguin, go to Noah, give a title submission, they
have to come back with their approval. Part of it's a nice thing, though, because some authors
come to me and say, Mike, can you do me a favor? Can't you? And I'm like, I gotta go to
Penguin. So there is a little bit of an advantage, selfishly, to me, that I'm not, I don't have to
be the bad guy and say you can't do something.
AJ Harper: I also have a Profit First Derivative in my current cohort.
Mike Michalowicz: Who's that?
AJ Harper: Um, Wade.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, Wade Carpenter!
AJ Harper: Yeah. And I, I, I, I have to just pause for a moment to tell you, there's not a
single Profit First Derivative written like this because it's a parable. I'm, I'm just stunned by
it.
Mike Michalowicz: A fable or a parable? What's the difference?
AJ Harper: What do you mean?
Mike Michalowicz: A fable?
AJ Harper: No, it's a parable.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay, then define that.
AJ Harper: So, I'm, in this context, the, the story is, um, this, the, the lessons from Profit
First are told through the story.
Mike Michalowicz: Gotcha.
AJ Harper: So instead of having, um, here's some real stories about how you apply Profit
First, it's a fictional story about commercial contractors who are up to their ears in a problem
and how it's solved through Profit First, and Wade is a character in his own story.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's amazing.
AJ Harper: And it's so good. Like it's,
Mike Michalowicz: I can't wait.
AJ Harper: This structure is totally different. It's totally different.
Mike Michalowicz: That's a really interesting.
AJ Harper: And that was his idea.
Mike Michalowicz: Point is that these derivatives don't need to all follow a specific recipe or
script.
AJ Harper: No. And they're allowed to have 10, per your agreement,10 percent they can lift
directly, meaning word for word.
Mike Michalowicz: Yep.
AJ Harper: The rest is. You know, obviously they're still they can use the concepts no
matter what right word for word they can lift ten Wade hasn't lifted a single
Mike Michalowicz: Word
AJ Harper: not a single word and I would say most of the students I work with who come
through my course Barely don't lift anything.
Don't lift anything. They might quote you
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: But they don't lift anything and I just remembered the other two that came
through my course. I have to say it Um, Profit First for Micro Gyms, John Briggs.
Mike Michalowicz: John Briggs, amazing.
AJ Harper: And then Profit First for Lawn Care. And that's not the whole title. Um, but it's,
um,
Mike Michalowicz: At least two of these derivatives
AJ Harper: Profit First for Lawn Care and Landscape Businesses, Christine Era.
Mike Michalowicz: Christine Era,
AJ Harper: She... Her whole book is about this business model and this genius stuff she's
done and Profit First. But it's so much more.
Mike Michalowicz: What's interesting is two of these authors, maybe more, have now
become authors of their own original books. John Briggs, The Three-Three rule and Cindy
Thomason
AJ Harper: And Kasey Compton.
Mike Michalowicz: What did Kasey write?
AJ Harper: Fix This Next for Health Care Providers?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, but what she write on her own?
AJ Harper: Kasey? She wrote—
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, Kasey Compton. I'm thinking Kasey Anton, picturing her. Yeah,
Kasey Compton. Yeah, of course. I mean, she did it with Penned With Purpose. Yes. Oh my
God. Um, that's so funny. It's so funny, you ever do that? Like, you hear a name and you
AJ Harper: Well, their name is spelled the same, they both have brown hair.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking of Kasey Anton's I'm like, she wrote a
restaurant book?
AJ Harper: No, but Kasey Anton did do a workbook.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, she did, but for Profit First.
AJ Harper: For her own book.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh my god. No,
AJ Harper: No, for profit first, yeah, but I mean, she did her own thing. I mean, we're
getting into the weeds here, but the point is, if you hear all this excitement, it's because it's
what I am, what I think is so cool about the derivatives, this is from my perspective, is how it
helps an author be, get that book out of the way that, not out of the way, get that first book
launched, but with their own creativity and the, um, gravitas.
Mike Michalowicz: Exactly.
AJ Harper: And so it gives them a leg up, but it also allows them a chance to shine.
Mike Michalowicz: Exactly.
AJ Harper: That's what I love about it.
Mike Michalowicz: That, yeah. What blew me away that Cindy Thomason moment when I
was sitting in that audience, she then presented to a thousand people. I don't, this is maybe a
little bit ego. I don't think Cindy would have had that opportunity, at least not as quickly to
speak in front of that audience without leveraging the title.
So it's a win win.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm getting further exposure for the work I'm doing. It compliments. My
work, but additionally she's winning. All right. So let's talk about the process you follow once
you have a derivative author queued up. How do you ensure what do you do to have them
produce a book that meets the standards?
AJ Harper: Oh for me?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: I mean just so everybody's clear. Nobody has to take my class. I just happen to
have worked with—
Mike Michalowicz: We contractually require now they work with you one on one initially
AJ Harper: But only one session.
Mike Michalowicz: That's the most we can demand. I feel.
AJ Harper: Yeah. I try to pack a lot into that session because most of them don't know you
got to pack in the self-publishing stuff and understanding some basic things about
fundamentals.
And it's a lot to try and do in one session, but they don't have to take my class. I have quite a
few people who did that I listed. I think for me, What I try to explain to them is this is your
book so you can use Mike's core message, but your reader is different than Mike's. And so
therefore may need to hear a different core message and to really just... I love to see the light
bulb go on, that oh, this is my book. And so I try to gear them toward. Okay, let's write it for
your person. You know, let's see. You can always fall back on the 10%. You could follow the
exact same structure as Profit First and just modify. But what if it's your book and what are
your readers need that's going to be different?
And so it's the same philosophy I teach in class, which is reader first, right? And I try to get
them to really own the book and own what matters to their reader, and then they're just on fire
Then they can just go forward. So they follow the same process that they any of my students
follow, taking ownership of the derivative. So that's why all these derivatives are so different
in the way that they're structured because their people need something different
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, they're so varied.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Um, I want to share some of the requirements that, uh, we outline in the
book. So the book, the authors have permission to use up to 10 percent of the copy that they
can lift directly from the book, which means they can go to the original Profit First and copy
word for word up to 10 percent with attribution.
So many of them will do a gray box. So maybe the concept of Parkinson's law needs to be
revisited in a book. They can just take the original. stuff that we wrote in Profit First, lift it
and say, here's what Parkinson's law is. And they gray box it. Interestingly, very few do that,
which is, I think, great. I think Parkinson's law as example, how it's defined in, in the original
prop first could be defined way differently in Wade's book and the way he presents it.
Uh, I think to make it relatable and accessible, they may have to modify it. So that's part of it.
Uh, second requirement. We talked about the, the cover requirements They the book has to
have minimally I think 25,000 words so it can be a short book. But they can go as long as
they want. Interestingly, no one's built or written a book as long as the original one.
AJ Harper: Not even Christine?
Mike Michalowicz: Not that I know of, because the original book is 50,000 words?
AJ Harper: Oh, they totally have written, no, I'll, actually, I'm, I can't tell you right now, but
you know, because we're in writing season, I have,
Mike Michalowicz: We have to give an update at the end.
AJ Harper: I have Profit First, a really old, you'll laugh, I save every draft of everything.
Mike Michalowicz: Me too, me too, I have every draft.
AJ Harper: So I have a Profit First draft up on my, it's constantly up right now, ‘cause I have
to go back into the text and look at things cause the thing that we're working on that we're not
naming.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah.
AJ Harper: So I'm always referring back to it, and, or referring to it, sorry if referring back
is redundant. Uh, and I will tell you the word count, but it's definitely over 60,000.
Mike Michalowicz: It is over 60,000.
AJ Harper: And I definitely know that there are other authors that have Christine era
definitely wrote more than I think she's got more words than you than Profit First.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, wow. Okay.
AJ Harper: I would bet.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: That's because she also wrote an entire business model for lawn care and
landscape professionals, in addition to everything else about Profit First, it's, it's, that book is,
I, I can't, I'm stunned by what she provides for readers in that book.
Mike Michalowicz: We also, another requirement is that the author has minimally 12 case
studies of full transformation deploying Profit First for that community.
So when someone calls and says, I want to write...
AJ Harper: Oh, not that they have to put it in the book, but they must, it must exist in the
world. I love that you do that. I didn't know that.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, you didn't know that? Yeah.
AJ Harper: I love that because, that's, that's, they have to have the goods, they have to know
what works.
Mike Michalowicz: They have to have the goods.
Uh, third parameter is you have to be a Profit First Professional for minimally one year. So
when we first started doing this, we said, well, qualified people will present themselves. We
had one person, and this wasn't nefarious, it just played out this way. They purchased a title,
which the books has never been published, and they paid the fee, which we'll talk about in a
little bit. And then they disappeared.
They stayed at Profit First Professional, and we called a year later and said, What's going on?
And, uh, it ends up they were just blocking the title. They said, Ah, I want to secure this, and
then I'll be ready at some future point. So they were in a financial position to, quote unquote,
secure the title.
AJ Harper: They wanted to lock it down so no one else could get it.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Um, and then never really pursued the niche. So now we had a
book that was just locked up and could never be printed. And then they decided to abandon
the niche and we could, we could do nothing with this, this particular book and that's how it
sits today.
So that was like, Oh, this person has to have practical experience. The last requirement of the
major requirements is you've 18 months from contract to on shelves with a six month
extension. So two years, so 18 months, we have one author that is now the point of Um, over
extending the 18 months and so we've called upon them.
So you got six months to wrap it up and they sent the manuscript over and it's a great way of
expediting it.
AJ Harper: Yeah. And if you knew, if you could say, if you saw, for example, that they
were in typeset or they were, you'd be like, okay, you would extend it because you know,
there's an actual book here.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh yeah. You just want to make sure there's a book.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: So those are the big parameters that have served us well and that's been
learning through the burning.
AJ Harper: Yeah. That makes sense.
Mike Michalowicz: Um, we talked about PR, uh, Penguin's involvement, the cover, the title,
um, the author has the right to produce workbooks for their books without any additional fee
to us.
AJ Harper: Which they should do.
Mike Michalowicz: Which they all should do.
AJ Harper: Yep.
Mike Michalowicz: And the greatest irony is we can't do it.
AJ Harper: I'm so mad about it. I'm so mad about it.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm so upset. I know I cannot. Yeah. And so we, we'll dedicate,
AJ Harper: I, I had 'em, I had five or six sneaky ideas about how we could get around it, but
I knew it would just end us.
Mike Michalowicz: These are all sneaky.
AJ Harper: We would, they're they're sneaky in a bad way, and we would end up in court.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. It's a shame. I have a sneaky, some sneaky ideas too, but that's—
AJ Harper: My best one was I, I, I will do it because it's enough people know now.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: My name associated with it.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AJ Harper: But then I was like, they'll totally know.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. They'll know. And
AJ Harper: And you don't want to be sneaky.
Mike Michalowicz: I don't want to be. It's not integral.
AJ Harper: It's not a good way to be.
Mike Michalowicz: It's not integral,
AJ Harper: but it's so infuriating.
Mike Michalowicz: It's so infuriating because it can help so many people. Um, let's talk
about the financials that we require of our derivative authors.
So We require a one-time fee of 25,000 to own the title for life. So that gives them the rights
to Profit First for, or Fix This Next for, you know, fill in the blank. This is a higher fee, I
think, than, Uh, someone else I was talking to who did it, I can't remember who it was, the
fee back in the day was I think 15 or 20,000 for that author.
It really translates to the popularity of your book. Like if James Clear says Atomic Habits,
he's selling to whatever it is, Atomic Habits for Entrepreneurs, whatever the subcategory is,
that's more than 25,000.
AJ Harper: Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. That's at least six figures.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um. They also have to cover all their
publishing fees. It's required that they self-publish. This was mandated by Penguin. Again,
they don't want someone competing with the original. So you can't go to another traditional,
you can't go to, you know, McGraw or something and say, Hey, I got a title. Profit First for e
commerce. They don't want hybrids taking it. So Page Two is out and all the other hybrids
are out.
You have to self-pub. So self pubbing, you know, we will, we have already dedicated
episodes to it, but Ingram spark. You could use Kindle's platform. Most people use
IngramSpark, I think.
AJ Harper: I recommend, well, I mean, we can get into a whole thing on it, but I
recommend using Amazon KDP plus IngramSpark to back yourself up.
Mike Michalowicz: Combo deal.
AJ Harper: Yeah, that's where I've landed lately. Okay. But we can do a whole episode on it.
Mike Michalowicz: I was pro KDP, you were pro Ingram, and then I switched to Ingram and
now you've become a little KDP.
AJ Harper: Well, no, I just, Think that Amazon does some talk about sneaky. Amazon does
some sneaky stuff that makes it harder on self-published authors. And so since they've made
some changes, I think Ingram should be your primary and you should back it up after the
book comes out with Amazon KDP.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, nice. Okay.
AJ Harper: I'm happy to discuss.
Mike Michalowicz: We will, we should dedicate an episode to it.
AJ Harper: Some updates in self-publishing.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. We should, we should. Um, in regards to the royalties, the
royalties all go to the author of the book.
AJ Harper: And in this case, since they're self-publishing, it's net sales.
Mike Michalowicz: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So we don't share in the royalties at all. I think
some other folks have considered sharing royalties. It's just messy.
AJ Harper: It's so messy. Tracking royalties is just, oh, it's so challenging.
Mike Michalowicz: I was talking with Hal Elrod, I'm always busting his chops.
You gotta see this text chain. I, I, I'll send it to you. I want you to just look at it. Uh, maybe
I'll pull it up on my phone here while we're doing this. But, uh, I, I reached out to Hal and
now I forgot it's two, two, two times.
AJ Harper: He left me the nicest review on my book.
Mike Michalowicz: Did he? (Yeah.) So he called and says, I want a Miracle Morning for,
You know, Miracle Morning for carpenters, Miracle Morning for—
AJ Harper: As he should.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. I'm like, you absolutely should. So we walk through it and, uh,
he's looking at doing it and he asks, like, should I share royalties? I'm like, dude, dude, trust
me. Do not do it. Clean. Keep it clean. Keep it clean, baby. Um, here's the obligation back to
me for these derivative authors.
I commit to writing a foreword. I do. It's one plane flight. You know, for me to get, for me to
finish eight, literally 800 words, It takes six hours for me. For you, you could do 800 words
probably in like 30 minutes.
AJ Harper: No, but not far off.
Mike Michalowicz: Right?
AJ Harper: An hour or two.
Mike Michalowicz: You would nail it. Six hours. And it's like, oh, that's, that's prior, that's
just the raw output.
And then I got to edit the flight back. So it's 12 hours to write a foreword. But these are
forwards written by me. Um. And I always look for a personal story and personal connection.
I want the link. So every single one.
AJ Harper: I'm just laughing. ‘Cause I get to read these when they come through my class
and I just read Wade's
Mike Michalowicz: when he carried me?
AJ Harper: I was like, what in my mind? I'm like, Mike, what are you doing? Talking about
carrying you around on the shoulders or whatever. And then you brought it home and I was
like, Oh, nice job, Mike.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: That's un-AJ, like this is pure Michalowicz.
AJ Harper: I just love it. It's kind of, I get a little excited when I get to read one of the four.
It's like, what's he gonna do?
Mike Michalowicz: What's he gonna do?
Mike Michalowicz: So, uh, Wade, that's the most recent forward I wrote. And, uh, I just look
at where did the connection happen? And sure enough, Wade's a very stoic kind of guy,
reserved?
AJ Harper: Reserved
Mike Michalowicz: reserved. And We're at this, this, uh, Zoo together through our mastery
meetup event and I'm like, oh my god Someone's got throw me in the bear cage and Wade's
like, I'll do it I'm like what and he picks me up and I'm like get pictures and people are
snapping shots and you know, we joke around and I'm like, oh, there's this other guy behind
this guy. That's it. Yeah, you know and like this is who Wade is.
AJ Harper: You are going to be shocked when you read his book because he's also a really
brilliant storyteller. Like I'm telling you He has innate talent.
Mike Michalowicz: I can't wait to read it. Yeah, Wade. It actually there's also interesting
story This is very relevant as we've expanded titles certain titles kind of buttress up against
each other. So we have Profit First for Contractors written by Sean Van Dyke, now Profit
AJ Harper: Which is a very successful book.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, perhaps the most. And then Profit First for commercial
contractors, or commercial construction. Commercial construction by Wade. That was
negotiated. So, Wade wanted Profit First for commercial contractors.
So I said, hold on. That could be an impedance on Sean, because contractors is,
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: So we called Sean. Kudos to Sean. Hopped on the phone right away.
He's like, let's walk through this. He goes, I want to see this as a compliment, but I don't want
to see as a threat. And we negotiated the title. And we came back and said, this is the title we
agreed to.
I called Penguin. We got approval. Clear. Wade then comes back and says, I want to change
the title. I said, oh dude, you're killing me. I'm like, we have to go through this process again.
He had a different title, which was maybe more suitable, but it was in conflict. Uh, so I had to
have a call with Wade and said, Wade, we got to stick with the original title.
Title unless we want to go through this whole mess again, but we have to get a whole new
contract He's like, you know what? I'll stick with the original title.
AJ Harper: You know what? I'm, he, people are gonna be so thrilled with that book isn't
gonna matter.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, and I think it's a great oh, we agreed to it and then there was a
justification to change it, but it was difficult. So you just as a The, the person that manages all
the derivatives, just be careful, you're going to run into that as your derivative set expands
We had it with, uh, um, Venus Michaels ran into it with, she wrote Profit First for
photographers, but there's also Profit First for Creatives. So, um, but Venus's book is
amazing.
AJ Harper: Another good storyteller.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh my God. And the gigs she got from it. So my responsibility is the, to
write the forward, it's to negotiate and navigate title selection and potential conflict among
your authors or compliment among your authors.
It's to give some of the self-publishing direction. Um, so we have kind of a script. We walk
people through some basic stuff. We refer them to you. We also, agree to do initial
promotion. The thing is, we just reach out to our list once and say hey, we have another
derivative out there. We implore upon the author, it's your responsibility to market the book
Um, we get them on the podcast. We have the g-map podcast and we get them on the show
and promote them there, too um That's my responsibilities Do you have uh anything else in
the editorial space you want to talk about?
AJ Harper: No, I just I know I think it's... You can't really control it, you know, you can't
really control what quality the quality of the book.
Mike Michalowicz: So Here's what I think is that the what's worked well for us every one of
the books we have derivatives for those three titles We talked about earlier. Is that every
author is teaching the methodology first before they start writing about it So I don't pick
rando blue and say hey, why don't you write a derivative? These are people that have been
teaching Profit First, or Fix This Next, or the pumpkin plan for an extended period of time so
they have a competency.
AJ Harper: You, you also can control the editorial somewhat. I'm thinking back to working
with people who were pretty heavily involved with the Chicken Soup for the Soul derivative.
I mean, talk about derivatives.
Mike Michalowicz: That's the...
AJ Harper: I mean, that's the that's the grandma. Yeah, of derivatives right there So they had
very those are short stories that are true. They follow a very specific format, which I have
actually ghostwritten some of those so back in the day So I learned the formula. Yes, so I
learned the formula And they were very specific, beat by beat.
Mike Michalowicz: We gotta do an episode called the Chicken Soup Formula.
AJ Harper: No. Okay. That's their intellectual property. (Okay, okay.) I'm not going to do
that. But I will say that that's one way that they did it. And then what, what they would do is
they would, people would invest in becoming a derivative, but then they had to recruit all
those authors.
And so, uh, the part I don't know is how, how involved the Chicken Soup guys, and by guys,
I mean the corporation, was with, with recruiting all the people. Um, so that part I'm not
really sure, but I do know that every story had to follow the same formula.
Mike Michalowicz: That's interesting.
AJ Harper: And so they kept, because they had a very specific brand, they had to be careful
about it. You, a person is supposed to buy that book and then they can pick any story in the
book and get that warm chicken soup feeling. And it had to give that feeling so they couldn't
mess up on that quality.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, that makes a hundred percent sense.
AJ Harper: They had to be careful about it.
Mike Michalowicz: I wonder, this is just conjecture with E myth, E myth.
If those individuals who wrote the derivatives were necessarily teaching it just because some
books were so off of the derivatives, I've read off of the theme that I wonder if the person
really had deployed the systems and ideas of E Myth.
AJ Harper: Yeah. I mean, you have to decide. I think this is a good thing for any listener
who wants to do derivatives of their book, that they think about what, how can I employ
quality standards? And, uh, some people do reviews, you know, like they might, you, you
aren't doing a sign off, but you could do a sign off. But then what would you do? Can you
imagine?
Mike Michalowicz: Oh my God. Every day it would just be reading books.
AJ Harper: Well, and what would you do when you had to say, I can't sign off on this?
Mike Michalowicz: Oh gosh. I don't know. I wish there was one, two books I didn't sign off
on, so to speak. You know, I just, that's, that's the risk.
AJ Harper: That's the risk.
Mike Michalowicz: But the, they're self-vetting. Uh, these two books are not that popular
whatsoever. Yeah. Yeah. So no one's really consuming it. So it doesn't, does that matter?
AJ Harper: But probably not.
Mike Michalowicz: One person did approach me this week, so I was kind of surprised.
Anything else on this? ‘Cause I want to give an update on how we're doing.
AJ Harper: Sure, let's go.
Mike Michalowicz: I got a freaking maybe story for the end of the book. It happened
AJ Harper: . For a book, Call to Greatness?
Mike Michalowicz: Yes. So tell me what you think. Okay. I'm not gonna say the person's
name, but it is a person we both know who's been doing this system. They took profit first.
They translate it to their home. We have not interviewed this person yet.
AJ Harper: Okay. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz: I flew out to Europe. Uh, I did three speaking gigs this week. I started
off in Texas. I flew down to, uh, the Lone Star Dumpster Conference, which was amazing.
Dumpster folks, right? Is this funny? And it was like a rock concert set up. They had an
outdoor stage, like where you'd see like Luke Bryan up on stage or something. It was really
cool setup.
AJ Harper: And it's all people who are in the dumpster industry?
Mike Michalowicz: From all over the country.
AJ Harper: Wow.
Mike Michalowicz: One dude comes up to me, uh, He, it wasn't Texas and he happened to
be a Texan. So he's got that, it's a beautiful accent. I think that it's one of my favorites, the
Texan draw, you know, and he goes, uh, in this guy, like he's got the big belt buckle, he's got
the cowboy hat on and he comes up to me and you hear like the spurs on the boots. And so
my heart's racing and he starts crying and he goes, Profit First day of my life.
And I'm like, Oh, So it was beautiful. From there I fly on to Kansas City. Kansas City. I had
to stop in Orlando on the way for another gig. I get out to the links to can't say this person I'm
about to talk to picks me up and say, I'm going to drive you for an hour because I'm going to
take you to the conference myself.
Cause I have to tell you a story. So we drive, we go to a restaurant and we order food. He
looks at me, he goes, I became a millionaire last week.
AJ Harper: As in like a net millionaire. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. I'm like, are you? Kidding me? Jump up, high five him, and I go,
dude, we're buying iced tea for the entire because he doesn't drink.
Because he doesn't drink.
AJ Harper: What about some bacon?
Mike Michalowicz: He doesn't drink. Ice tea on us boys. Um, he's using our system. He has
struggled financially. He has eight children. He's got a big family and he has a wife that is
extremely ill. He had to in the last year, stop working basically to care for his wife. And he
used the system, and he's made more money in this last year.
It was unbelievable.
AJ Harper: Stop. Oh my gosh. This sounds perfect.
Mike Michalowicz: He, I said, so what are you going to do? He's like, Mike, I don't know if
my wife's going to live another year. He goes, uh, we're going to Prague. He goes, I just, he
goes, I was paid. Uh, I think it was 35,000 in the airline tickets. He's got eight, eight children,
plus their spouses.
So 16, plus him and his wife. So 18 people, he's flying out to Prague.
AJ Harper: Is that where she wanted to go?
Mike Michalowicz: I don't know if that's, yeah. But he's like, we're doing this. And he goes,
he goes, I would never be able to have this experience without this system. And he's a stoic
guy, he didn't, I was crying and he's just like,
AJ Harper: That's because you cry all the time.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh God. I'm such a lightweight. Is this potentially the story?
AJ Harper: Potentially. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: Let's get a, let's get it going. Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: We'll call him William. So we'll, I'll call William and see if he's willing
to
AJ Harper: It’s A story.
Mike Michalowicz: It's a story. For sure.
AJ Harper: Okay.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm going to call William. So that's one update. The other update is we're
now in the book, uh, chapter one, I sent back to you.
One thing I didn't do was I read the intro. We iterated. I love the change, the baking soda
story. I, and people will get this once you get the final book. I did edits, but one thing I
remember you saying a while back was when I send the edits back, you feel this calling from
yourself to, to review it. And I just don't want to throw you off of your game.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: So I didn't send it until you said, okay, now you can say, well, does that
work well?
AJ Harper: It doesn't, I'm not going to open it.
Mike Michalowicz: If I'm okay,
AJ Harper: I'm just I have good discipline.
Mike Michalowicz: I don't have that discipline,
AJ Harper: But here's the thing. This is not an update about the book. But I think this is
interesting because there's a lot of people who listen to this podcast to hear us talk about how
we work.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: I need you to tell me what you think of it. But what happens is we're so in the let
tag your it tag your it tag your it that you never say So, like, I'm like, Oh,
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, is it flowing or not?
AJ Harper: You don't just say like, you know what? That was, I really loved this or, and I'm
at such a, the first draft is still very fragile for me.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: So remember I texted you. It's like, can you just tell me what you think of it, and
then you didn't answer. You said, I sent it back. I was like, and I texted you again and I said,
but can you tell me if it's working for you?
So I'm, that's me just saying, just like even just one sentence.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, thank you.
AJ Harper: You know?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And I'm like, you are like the words of affirmation guy. Yeah. Remember you
told me that was you did the tell love language test. Totally.
Mike Michalowicz: I totally my love language.
AJ Harper: So I'm, it's not mine. You would think it would be mine, but it's not.
I did yours, body time. Quality time. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: You have all the quality time, uh, expressions.
AJ Harper: I do.
Mike Michalowicz: What do you mean?
AJ Harper: What are the quality time expressions?
Mike Michalowicz: You're very, you're one of the biggest expressions is presence. Like
you're very present.
AJ Harper: Yes, I am.
Mike Michalowicz: That's the definition of quality.
AJ Harper: My whole life mantra is show up for the people you love,
Mike Michalowicz: But you always show up. And when you're there, you're all into there.
AJ Harper: Yes, this is true. Okay. But I'm telling you, I need a few words of affirmation. I,
I'm really, it's, this has been, uh, I cannot, writing a book when I'm teaching and then also we
didn't have all our interviews done. It has really thrown me off because I'm used to having all
my stuff, I'm used to having all my materials, and then it's kind of like, for me and how my
brain works, When the new materials come in, it's like I'm in a pinball machine, and I'm
going, beep beep, and I just got moot, beep beep, and then I'm just, Oh, hang on, because
every interview has potential to shape something.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: So, the not having stuff is, Uh, very, makes me feel, like I'm actually getting
emotional right now, but I, it's been an emotional weekend, so I don't know what...
Mike Michalowicz: You've been going through,
AJ Harper: Just disturbing. It's just because I, my, our dog, family dog, we had to put him
down yesterday, so I don't know if I'm emotional because of that or if it's menopause or this
dang book. But I, I feel so fragile in this early stage, especially when I haven't had all my
stuff. And then I normally am not doing this much writing while I'm also finishing class.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. You've had a lot.
AJ Harper: It's just been a lot. That's, I have four days, three days left in that class. And then
I go from going a hundred miles an hour to like, do, do, do, do, do, do, like 10 miles.
Mike Michalowicz: Nice.
AJ Harper: So anyway, I could use some words of affirmation.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. So let me say it's excellent. Let me say that I was, didn't expect
the intro first. Usually we don't start with that.
AJ Harper: No, but it just came to me.
Mike Michalowicz: It's great.
AJ Harper: I never do it.
Mike Michalowicz: And, and I also appreciate you taking the baking soda story.
Cause the one thing that was missing for me in the first intro was. It was too Profit Firsty, and
as I present Profit First to individuals, like the, the 1 folks, this is the folks that, uh, we first
tested the system on, now I'm doing it with another group.
AJ Harper: You are?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going on January 7th, I'm keynoting to 250
employees.
AJ Harper: Oh, sorry to interrupt. So, you, you were noticing with the A1 group, I just
interrupted you, I apologize.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm the master at interruptions, so. Throw it my way, sister. What I
noticed is when I talked about profit first, there was a disconnect. They're like, Oh, that's not
for me. That was my interpretation.
AJ Harper: Oh, interesting. And that's why the more reason to have the keynote be testing
all this, testing
Mike Michalowicz: this. I don't, yeah, I'm not an entrepreneur. Therefore, an entrepreneurial
system won't work for me was how it was being consumed. I was like, Oh, here's what we do
for entrepreneurs. And you're an entrepreneur of your own life.
That was like the bridge.
AJ Harper: Oh yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm not an entrepreneur in my own life. I work for an entrepreneur.
AJ Harper: It's a wholly different headset or mindset.
Mike Michalowicz: And I think how it executes itself financially is if you're an employee,
you have a predictable income until you're laid off or you resign, but you have a predictable
income.
The trade off, of course, is your, your income won't increase. as radically as it could for an
entrepreneur. Entrepreneur has a very volatile income. The risk, of course, is you could lose it
all very quickly, and many do. So the baking soda story was a way to bridge something that
served one community, but oh my gosh, there's a direct translation.
I'm opening with the baking soda story at the next keynote.
AJ Harper: Let me know how it goes, because you're just giving me a thought.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: Do, uh. Do we even mention it at all in the intro?
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, maybe not.
AJ Harper: We might be stuck on this. We might be myopic in our thinking.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: And I just wonder what would the intro look like if we didn't mention it at all?
Mike Michalowicz: That's super interesting.
AJ Harper: Hmm. I will. I want to hear. You got to text me to see how that goes. January
7th. If it lands, then that's great. But I think it's doable without it because, yeah. Interesting. I
don't know. Let's think. And then this is also a mental note for me. You know, we've talked in
the past about how I do editing passes.
I need to do a Profit First pass. I need to add that to my list now where I'm not doing it too
much because I can already see some of the stuff I've written.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that’s interesting.
AJ Harper: mind. I can already see where I've written when I did this for Profit First, like
just these little references that I can already see that I've written that I need to go back and be
like, you know what?
They don't need to know that. Why do they need to know that?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. They don't need it. I
AJ Harper: want them to know that because I love Profit First. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ Harper: But then we think, no, they don't need to
Mike Michalowicz: serve the reader.
AJ Harper: What they need is what I do. Remember what I texted you?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: The interview I did. Cause you couldn't do it with me.
I couldn't
Mike Michalowicz: With, uh, Travis, Travis.
AJ Harper: The quote was, uh, wait, I'm not going to get it right because I, I'd have to look it
up, but I texted you. He said, um, That this was, you could still have the American dream.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: That what you had created, Mike.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: What you created, Mike.
Mike Michalowicz: You can still have the American dream.
AJ Harper: Through this, you can still have the American dream, it's still alive.
Mike Michalowicz: That's.. the qote.
AJ Harper: Stop it. That was like, I mean Yeah. You have to tell page two about that quote,
because that was legit. It was just off the cuff. It wasn't, I didn't ask him to say anything. I just
said, this is how I got it. I said, we were closing and he gave me a ton of information. This is
the person who was helping run the program.
Mike Michalowicz: Travis Snyder
AJ Harper: at A-1.
Mike Michalowicz: Yep.
AJ Harper: And so he knew all the stories intimately.
Mike Michalowicz: Yep.
AJ Harper: And I said, well, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you just really
wanted to share with me? And that's when he said it.
Mike Michalowicz: So this is how this iteration works. I'm so happy we're recording this
because this is where the juice is.
Does that become also a potential endorsement for the book?
AJ Harper: Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: Right. Do we reach out to them and say, Hey, we'd like to put that in the
back.
AJ Harper: And have you considered. Doing endorsements from just everyday folks.
Mike Michalowicz: Well, Travis Schneider is one.
AJ Harper: I know, but more like that. Yeah. The people who use the program. So, not
looking like testimonials, looking like endorsements. Just something, maybe you, it needs
some pages of that in the beginning. As opposed to, you know, on the inside where you,
Mike Michalowicz: yeah, okay, uh, one more little tip, take away just how this stuff iterates.
We interviewed Tiffany Alici. I went to the Barnes and Nobles and as an author or aspiring
author, everyone should go to every bookstore, indie bookstore and so forth.
I was driving by Barnes and Nobles, pull over, Um, my fat ego has to look for my own book
and make sure it's displayed. And I look for all the people I know and I start sending pictures
and videos. So I sent one to Tiffany's, Hey Tiff, I'm at the Morris Plains Barnes and Nobles
on route 10. Look, here's your book.
And by the way, this one's not facing out. So I've moved your book here. So I have a, there's
a whole section out of this Tiffany Alici's pictures lined up on the wall at Barnes and Nobles.
Do it out of, of course, genuine care for your fellow authors. This is collaborative but share it
with them. It's another way of building affinity.
So there's her tip for you.
AJ Harper: She's featured heavily in the book.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: She's so, she's so smart.
Mike Michalowicz: Good. She's so good. Um, next week we're going to talk about turning
your book into a keynote. This is what I request that we talk.
AJ Harper: This was a Mike request.
Mike Michalowicz: It sounded like you said micro request.
AJ Harper: Yeah. We took, why did it take us so long to think to do that?
Mike Michalowicz: I don’t know.
AJ Harper: We both know about that.
Mike Michalowicz: That's funny. When you put Mike requests, it sounds like micro quest.
Um, I want to remind you as a listener, go to DWTB podcast. com. That's where you can get
your free resources. So we have some materials for you, uh, all based upon AJ's work. So it
will support you set up for our email list.
We still want to do a live show. We want to be at a theater. Uh, we had one person reach out
so far and said, I'm coming. We need 499 more.
AJ Harper: Hang on. I got over the weekend. I got an email directly to me.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: Request saying I'm in. Oh, we're two people. We got two.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh my god, we could your house or my house at least. We could 498
beers to go. We'd love to hear your stories too because we want to feature it or what do you
want us to talk about because we want To talk about it. You can email us at hello at DWTB
podcast. com Make sure you check out AJ's work go to what's the website that you go to
AJ Harper: AJ Harper .com
Mike Michalowicz: The best one for us. And we also have writer's lab. Um, you can check
out too. So just email about that and we can get you in a course that gets you going along.
Thanks for joining us for today's episode and every past episode you listened into. Thanks for
being a binger. We look forward to seeing you next week. As always, the big reminder, don't
write that book, write the greatest book you can.