Don't Write That Book

Back Cover Do's and Dont's

Episode Summary

In this episode, AJ and Mike address some important dos and don’ts for back cover copy. If you didn’t know back covers were so important, now you do! They’ll walk through some cautionary tales, offer ways to increase your visibility and connection with your reader, and even explain what authors should consider when publishing a paperback versus a hardback with a dust jacket. See? There’s a lot to talk about!

Episode Notes

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Episode Transcription

Episode 98:  “Back Cover Do's and Dont's” 

Mike Michalowicz: Welcome back to the Don't Write That Book podcast  where you can learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship.  Follow along with us as we give you an insider's view of the book industry.  Now here are your hosts. Myself, Mike Michalowicz and AJ Harper.  

Woo. Yeah, so just now we were having a really interesting conversation about  a potential show to do, and AJ was getting fired up. Dropping F-bombs.  

AJ Harper: Yeah.  

Mike Michalowicz: Said you're, thank God, Mike, you're not even a whiff of,  and then used another term. I was like, this is awesome.  

AJ Harper: I don't think I can use a term that term either anymore. It's the  eighties term.  

Mike Michalowicz: No. Yeah, unfortunately.  

AJ Harper: But can I, oh, I just thought another one I can't use. We are terrible  from the eighties. Our insults are terrible  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Eighties. and the movies like that stuff's illegal. I,  

AJ Harper: I know, but some of them are not illegal. They're just in very poor  taste.  

Mike Michalowicz: In very poor taste. Yeah. 

AJ Harper: It’s absolutely, I'll just say jerky. Jerky. It's not, it's a little jerky.  It's a little jerky. 

Mike Michalowicz: But I think we just hit on a topic outside of our talk about today. 

Yeah.  

AJ Harper: We should probably, we should probably do that. We're talk about  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. It's the, the male female dynamic going on in  authorship and, and you gotta. Know about it. So, we'll, we'll talk about that  some future episode. And you have AJ such a great perspective on this. But  today, today we're gonna talk about back covers. 

The do's and don'ts,  

AJ Harper: do's and don'ts  

Mike Michalowicz: Before we kick into it. I'm joined in studio with AJ Harper.  She's the author of Write a Must Read. Please tell me you have read that book  and if you haven't, you are at such a compromised position of, of being an  author. So read, write, I must read, and also go to aj harper.com to check out the  free resources AJ has, plus you can join her for retreats, workshops, all these  different things. 

AJ Harper: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now in paperback,  

Mike Michalowicz: oh, and the book's now in paperback, why do you move to  paperback? What's the benefit?  

AJ Harper: So, if a book is doing well, but could do better, if there was, were a  lower cost…format, then moving to paperback. Makes sense.  

Mike Michalowicz: Hmm. That makes that, that makes good sense. One thing I  wanna share is what I admire about you is your vocabulary, a large set of words  that are really effective in communicating. 

AJ Harper: Sometimes.

Mike Michalowicz: I, no, I think so. And, but you, you won't. You don't, you're  not the person that needs to use a word just because you know the word. You'll  revert to the simplest form of this communication. But when the, when the right  word is a more kind of off the beaten trail type of word, you'll drop it in if it  

compliments what you're trying to get across. 

That's really just, you know, that's probably the nature of being an author, but  you speak it so well too.  

AJ Harper: Listen, last week. I don't know when it was. I'm losing track of  days. I could not say emeritus. In fact, I haven't been able to say it for a long  time. But because LA I think it was last week, I kept saying, I can't say that. 

So I kept practicing and practicing and practicing. Oh, and now I can finally say  emeritus and then I couldn't remember if it was an adjective or a noun while I  was busy trying to say emeritus. So I'm telling you, you're giving me a lot of  credit. But. Sometimes I fail and it's with emeritus.  

Mike Michalowicz: I'm thinking it's, it would be an adjective, I think.  

AJ Harper: It's an adjective yeah. But in my mind, I was thinking that there  was a noun possibility and there isn't. And so that even I screw up. Twist things  in my head. So I'm just saying thank you for the shout out on my vocab.  

Mike Michalowicz: You're welcome.  

AJ Harper: I would really like to have a stronger modern slang vocab though. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's actually interesting that, that's so hard to stay on  top of. 

AJ Harper: I know. But what I'm give you tip, get a Gen Z employee.  Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's brilliant.  

AJ Harper: Yeah.

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. That's interesting. I. That is really interesting. You  know, I was traveling I travel all over and I, I returned to the US but I ran into  someone who was from Australia in this case. 

And actually I as in Ireland when I ran into him, and I just inherently switched  to use some of the really common slang like, chook or something like, which  would be a type of chicken. And I actually had a few days ago, so I'm like,  yeah, I grabbed some chook and he, he looks at me, he is like. Wow. He's like  you, you kinda know some Australian speak. 

I'm like, yeah. He's like, I just want you to know. I appreciate you doing that  because I saw the last person you were talking to and you were talking a little  more in their slang. Like it's a great way to connect if it's authentic and real and  natural.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. And there's, okay. So that I'm not gonna be something I  admire about you. That you are always going out of your way to connect with  people in ways that are meaningful to them. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, thank you.  

AJ Harper: Meaningful to them.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Versus what you. You're, it's just your, I've said this before, your  natural curiosity.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. It's wickedly important for me to connect with  people in a way that matters to them. 

AJ Harper: Yeah. It's very noticeable. So that those, the vocab is also phrasing  that maybe locals would have  

Mike Michalowicz: Yes. 

AJ Harper: Terms. So now we're, you know, my team is up on the island for  these retreats four weeks outta the year now. So they've done two weeks at the  time of this recording. Okay. This is July and then we have two more. 

So I've been, you know, teaching them little phrases and I heard Laura just say  it in regular conversation. One of them is off the rock, so the locals is an island  will say, I have to get off the rock. Right? Instead of I'm going off island.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: And I heard her say it the other day, just in general. Not, not, yeah.  So that gave me, gave me warm fuzzies actually, because the two of them have  completely, like, they're just rock stars on the island now.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah.  

AJ Harper: They know it. They, they, they, they know the people. They know  what they're doing. Let, lemme tell you. I did, I have to tell you quickly my little  island story that I wanted to tell you. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh yes. Right. We forgot last week.  

AJ Harper: So this island is so funny. My contractor is also the fire chief and  also owns the store with the rocks and gems. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And my  carpenter, I had been trying to get him to finish a job and it, this island time is  no joke, where it's, let's have a meeting and it's a week later before anybody  even considers talking to you again. 

And then you send an email and it's two weeks later. And it's just, we don't  operate like this on the East Coast.  

Mike Michalowicz: No. Can you imagine? Oh my gosh. Two minutes is  frustrating.  

AJ Harper: So. I can't get a hold of my carpenter. I can't get a hold of my  carpenter. And then we are in the car getting onto the ferry and I said to Laura  and Sadé, there's my carpenter. He was taking tickets. He was working the boat. 

Mike Michalowicz: Wow.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. Everybody up there has multiple, multiple, multiple jobs.  Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: You're the guy that comes to do you know electrician work is  probably also an EMT?  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Everybody has multiple jobs,  

Mike Michalowicz: So interesting.  

AJ Harper: So I had my meeting with him, my little brief,  

Mike Michalowicz: is he coming out? 

AJ Harper: I, I, I, I, I hope so.  

Mike Michalowicz: Has the water been resolved? Do you have the water filter?  AJ Harper: We got the water softener.  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, thank God.  

AJ Harper: So that's good.  

Mike Michalowicz: And it's filtering out all the iron.  

AJ Harper: Yes. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. It's very soft, it's very slippery  feeling. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can drink it now without iron deposits  in your body. 

But yeah, I'm hoping my wife says she spoke to him and that in theory, the  shelves will be in at the end of next week. (Okay.) But We'll, but we'll see. But it was so funny 'cause I'm rolling down my window. 'cause you have to give  him the ticket on the ferry. Yeah. Like, hey.  

Mike Michalowicz: He's like, 

AJ Harper: you sent me. He's like, he, you know, but he was cash. Like he  didn't even, didn't bother him at all. Didn't, he didn't feel embarrassed.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. No, no. I'm sorry. He's like, yeah,  

AJ Harper: It's island time. I'm good. We'll get you, we'll get there, we'll get,  yeah. It's infuriating.  

Mike Michalowicz: How did this episode come about?  

AJ Harper: So I, one of the people in my sprint community, Nikki Finlay,  asked for me to do something on book descriptions. And I, I don't think we  could do a whole episode on that. Actually. I think we could do 10 minutes on  that.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm-hmm.  

AJ Harper: And then I thought, oh, and then I, there was some other folks  talking about other things to do with back cover. I think maybe Natalie was  saying this is what happens in the sprints. Hey, you did something on the cover,  front cover, what about the back cover? So I figured let's combine them.  

Mike Michalowicz: I think that's brilliant and that actually has me thinking  maybe we wanna do one on author bios. And it sounds like, could you do a full  episode? Yeah. I bet you we could, because there's a bios. 

AJ Harper: I just did, I just did a whole class on it. 

Mike Michalowicz: On Author Bios? 

AJ Harper: Mm-hmm.

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, let's do a, a show on that because. There's author bios  for the book. There's author bios for when you speak on stage, there's author  bios and they, they start changing for when you get interviewed.  

AJ Harper: They're shorter. Longer. 

Mike Michalowicz: Short, longer or Exactly. They have different intent and  use. (Yep.) 

Okay, so back covers. There is only two types, right? There's the wraps for a  dust cover? 

AJ Harper: Dust jacket for a hard cover.  

Mike Michalowicz: There's a. Paperback there. Sometimes there's a hardcover  that's, yeah, I guess it acts like a paperback, right? Where it's imprinted onto it.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. Where it doesn't have a dust jacket.  

Mike Michalowicz: What's the main difference between a dust jacket cover  versus a paperback cover?  

AJ Harper: Well, on the dust jacket you have the flaps. So you can do the  author bio on one flap and the book description on the other flap, and then  reserve that back cover space for something else, which is typically used for  endorsements. Sometimes other things like taglines, you could put core  message, maybe you have an image there you want to put. 

But you are mostly gonna see endorsements.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Mostly often endorsements. And on a paperback.  How's that?  

AJ Harper: All that has to go in one place. On the back.  

Mike Michalowicz: You have to get the, you have to get the author bio on  there. 

AJ Harper: The book description endorsements.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: A tagline.  

Mike Michalowicz: So I guess the mistake would be you make the font a six point font. 

AJ Harper: Yeah. And then this, this trick that I see so often, actually it  happens a lot with the Profit First derivative people. Yeah. I, I always tell my  students who are also derivative people of yours, show me that back cover  before, just send it to me. (Yeah.) Because it goes, the margins go out to teeny,  teeny tiny. 

So there's just this little everything to do a centimeter and they've shoved it all.  And you look, the big culprit is bio. So there's a little picture, and then there's a  three-paragraph bio that there's no place.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: For a three-paragraph bio on the back cover. And I think authors  just don't know that they can just do one to two sentences on the back cover. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. 

AJ Harper: And put the full bio inside, but they just don't know. So they end  up with,  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. that's a great tip. 

AJ Harper: Text, text, text, text, text, text, text. It's so dense. It's overwhelming  and the typical reader will flip your book over, look at that and just not choose  not to even bother reading it.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. It just looks ugly.

AJ Harper: Well, it looks ugly, but it's overwhelming. So what we want that  negative space on a back cover. So it's you know, you need decent margins.  You need negative space in between text so that when you look at it. You feel  like I can read this. This is not too much. You do not want an instant feeling of,  you know, repelling readers right away. 

So one of the surest ways to do that is to have a ton of text on the back.  

Mike Michalowicz: So this episode's do's and don'ts. Maybe we can just go  through the things that you should do. 

AJ Harper: Yeah, I just gave you some don'ts. 

Mike Michalowicz: So why don't you some  

AJ Harper: Don’t and do's right there.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So why don't you walk me through  the list of dos you have assembled for us, and I'll ask you some questions  around it. 

AJ Harper: Okay, so I think you should include a tagline.  

Mike Michalowicz: And what's the tagline mean?  

AJ Harper: You know, something that encapsulates core message, so it could  be core message itself. On the back of mine, I have a hardcover with a dust  jacket. I also now have a paperback, but on the hardcover and the back, it has  my core message in big font, different color, bold. 

“A book is not about something, a book is for someone.” 

Mike Michalowicz: And that's not your subtitle.  

AJ Harper: No.  

Mike Michalowicz: And do you put it? 

AJ Harper: It's my core message.  

Mike Michalowicz: Do you put that core message in quotations or something  to identify that?  

AJ Harper: No.  

Mike Michalowicz: It's just a statement.  

AJ Harper: Yeah.  

Mike Michalowicz: You colorized it differently or you put a different font. AJ Harper: I think so. Yeah.  

Mike Michalowicz: So stylistically it stands out, or I mean  AJ Harper: It's, yeah, it's Page Two’s design.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Yeah.  

AJ Harper: So, and that goes on the back. 

Mike Michalowicz: The tagline that goes the back. 

AJ Harper: Okay. Mine's in the middle, but it could be at the top.  Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: If you have a great core message, put it there. Don't bury it in the  book description. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Make it big in a tagline.  

Mike Michalowicz: So with the money habit we talk about, don't change your  habits. Channel your habits. (Yeah.) It could be something to that effect?

AJ Harper: Exactly.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Gotcha.  

AJ Harper: Clear?  

Mike Michalowicz: Yes. Clear.  

AJ Harper: And then I think a golden rule, and this comes from writing book  descriptions, when I was a, a publisher, I, I've written, I don't even know how  many book descriptions, and I've also written them for people who are self publishing, you want try and get it under 150 words and it, you might have to be  even shorter, but that's a good starting point. 

Mike Michalowicz: Is there some magic around that number?  

AJ Harper: How many words are going to successfully fit on a back on a six  by nine.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: Okay. So that's gonna be different if you have a different trim size.  So if you've decided you're gonna go super big, maybe you have a workbook,  you have a lot more space to work with. But most books are gonna be, six by  nine or smaller. And so I just happen to know from experience writing a lot of  book descriptions for that trim size.  

Mike Michalowicz: Do you like to bullet point, like here's the three big  takeaways. Is that part of it?  

AJ Harper: Yeah, I think it's good to, you know, make sure that the book  description includes, Hey, this is the problem and the solution that the book  provides, but also why the author. 

Is qualified to solve this problem. Mm-hmm. And then I think very specific  benefits that will be, that readers will get from reading the book. Not general,  people make the mistake with bullets. It's very vague and very just broad, a very  specific. Benefit. Okay. And so start by listing as many as you can think of.

So let's think of it for the money habit.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. So the benefits is financial clarity, meaning we,  that's too broad. Okay. So, well, one of the techniques, so let's dig into this, is  you're gonna set up multiple accounts at your bank so you'll know what money  is available for what intended use.  

AJ Harper: So I would just put know exactly how much you have to spend. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: For the thing you want, I mean, that's not how I would phrase it,  but yeah. Something to that effect. Okay. So it wouldn't be, it's not the how set  up multiple bank accounts. Don't put the how in there.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: The very specific thing.  

Mike Michalowicz: I like that,  

AJ Harper: You know, exact simple charts so you know exactly how much to  invest and when. 

Mike Michalowicz: Right.  

AJ Harper: Or well, another thing we, we talk about is the difference, how,  how to save for, the impossible dream.  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh. Oh, that's sexy, right? That's sexy.  AJ Harper: Yeah. So that's very specific.  

Mike Michalowicz: That one's sexy. We talk about seasonality and basically  that you don't necessarily save for one event in the future, like a retirement. 

There's different moments you save for. So maybe we'd talk about something  like that. 

AJ Harper: No, it would be more like, how to adjust your spending and saving  habits based on  

Mike Michalowicz: Life circumstances or, yes. Something, something like that.  Yeah.  

AJ Harper: How to survive a financial crisis.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yep. Yep.  

AJ Harper: I would take, so this is what I would do, I would take in the debt  chapter. 

We have a great story about Dom. I think you know, and we have your debt  story. So I would go in there and I would figure out the percentage, how to pay  down X percent of your debt within X months. That's what I'm talking about,  specificity. So I would go find that, oh, I want that. I wanna, 'cause that's what  the reader wants to know. 

Give me, tell me, don't say financial clarity.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm.  

AJ Harper: Say know how much you have to spend on date night. You see the  difference?  

Mike Michalowicz: Yep. I'm making a little note to myself in the notes here.  We said we were gonna do an update on the money habit, so I have some stuff I  wanna share at the end. 

AJ Harper: Okay. And incidentally, we've already approved our book  description and none of those, none of those benefits are in there. 

But you, that's what I wanted to share. That's what I mean by specificity. People  are too broad.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Thank you. Financial clarity. 

AJ Harper: Actually, what I really just wanna know, can I figure out if, can I  afford my kids' college?  

Mike Michalowicz: What you say in here that you what qualifies you? So this  is your brag sheet, effectively. What do you mean by this?  

AJ Harper: It’s not a brag sheet, it's just in yours. We talk about this is the  same system that over a million people are using to say and then save their  business.  

Mike Michalowicz: So it's the credibility. 

AJ Harper: It’s the credibility factor. So it might be, and it, it's okay if it's not  academic or something like what you just said. It could be the qual your, how  your life qualifies you. You know? 

Mike Michalowicz: Right. So, we talked about Michelle two weeks ago now. It  was the guts of fermentation. That book she doesn't, this is her first book that's  coming out. She can't point to other successes, which she's talked to her life  history, as you're saying,  

AJ Harper: Not life history, but she can talk about her qualifications to talk  about fermentation. 

Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: You know, I don't know what they are.  

Mike Michalowicz: And do you cherry pick your, your biggest thing that you  think is most, gives you the most credibility? Because you can't do the whole  list.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. No. It's the main reason, you know, why you should be  writing it. Drawing on 15 years’ experience, you know. 

Mike Michalowicz: Okay, gotcha. Studying fermentation. Gotcha.  AJ Harper: It could, it's as simple as that. 

Mike Michalowicz: I lean into hyperbole and you say avoid using hyperbole,  which I think is appropriate. What, what are some examples of where people  become hyperbolic? 

AJ Harper: This amazing tour de force? Yeah. This masterpiece of...  Enlightenment to me. So this just, why are you doing this?  

Mike Michalowicz: This, to me, to me it's like the world's greatest hamburger  signs. Like every town has their world's greatest hamburger and it's,  

AJ Harper: I like the optimism, but let the, let the author just let the reader  decide if it's a masterpiece,  

Mike Michalowicz: You, there's a mock you. Show as a business makeover  show called Nathan for you. I'm sure I've told you about it before.  

AJ Harper: You are the second person to tell me about this.  Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: And also I've been told not to watch it.  

Mike Michalowicz: Really?  

AJ Harper: That I wouldn't like it.  

Mike Michalowicz: It it, there's cringe moments. It is so, okay. That's why,  that's, that's why I'm, it's cringey, but there's heart to still, it's so funny. So.  Nathan the makeover guy goes to one of these hamburger places and they have  a sign, says World's greatest hamburger, and they're struggling to get business.  And he goes to the owner and goes, you do the world's greatest hamburger. 

He's like. Yeah. He goes, well then that's gonna be our marketing. He goes,  we're gonna give everyone a, if they don't think it, if they conclude it's not the  world's greatest hamburger, you get it for free. Oh God. So, so these hundreds  of people start lining up for hamburgers. It says, you know, it's a $5 hamburger.

And so then people are biting. This woman eats everything and she eats the last  piece. She goes, this is disgusting. And he goes, you don't think it's world's  crazy hamburger? She goes, no. He goes, here's your money back. It's so funny.  It's so funny, but this hyperbole, it's just not believable. Everyone just, just, I  think it degrades the perceived value of your book. 

AJ Harper: Yeah, it does. Yeah. People are trying to figure out what nice  things to say when they should be speaking about the problem.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm-hmm.  

AJ Harper: The solution and the actual benefits.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And okay, let's keep going through what, what are  other dos for the back of the book? That was kind of a don't, but what are the  other dos? 

AJ Harper: Oh yeah, we're mixing it ups. Okay. We're mixing up the do's and  don'ts. That's okay.  

Mike Michalowicz: That's okay.  

AJ Harper: So challenge yourself to tighten that book description even further.  A really simple technique is to just make yourself cut however many I'm gonna  try and get this down to a hundred words. Yeah. Just see what happens because  you'll be surprised. 

How much better it sounds.  

Mike Michalowicz: I, I found the same thing, like, that's good editing. It's like I  used to try to write it perfect, quote unquote perfectly the first time and I  struggled. Now I just write everything and then go back through it just, yeah.  And start cut, start cutting and so much better.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. And then even when you think, okay, this will fit, that  doesn't necessarily mean that it's as tight as it could be. So just because it will fit on the back cover doesn't mean you shouldn't try and  tighten it further.  

Mike Michalowicz: How do you address endorsements on the back cover?  

AJ Harper: Use your best endorsements use, and then people make a mistake.  They, you know, sometimes people will do a, a long endorsement, so Steve  Pressfield did a long endorsement for me. 

It's a glorious, beautiful thing. But my publisher just grabbed the first line. Put  that on the front because he is a big deal. And my Oh, that's  

Mike Michalowicz: cool.  

AJ Harper: And my readers know who he is. And so then the full endorsement  is in the inside, so you can repeat the endorsement. Oh, that's cool. So let's say  you have someone who did two or three lines. 

That's cool. Don't stress. Pick the, do a pull quote from the endorsement. That's  the best bit. Kind of like with the movie posters, right? Yeah. And put that on  the back cover or, or if there's space on the front cover for one, and then put the  full one in your full list of endorsements in the interior. 

Mike Michalowicz: When you take someone's endorsement and just pull a, a  few words from it. Do you have to notify or are you expected to notify that  endorser and say, Hey,  

AJ Harper: Not, not really. Okay. Some endorsers will automatically say, you  can use any or a part of this.  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, okay.  

AJ Harper: You've probably seen that sometimes. 

Mike Michalowicz: I should start doing that. I always just give my quote. I  should say that. 

AJ Harper: Yeah. Lemme make it easier for you, but it's assumed that you can  quote, you can take a pull quote from an endorsement.  

Mike Michalowicz: You said put your best endorsements on the back. AJ Harper: Yeah, on the back. 

Mike Michalowicz: So I, I think I understand the logic right away. What do  you do with not best endorsements… inside your book? 

AJ Harper: In the praise page before the book begins. Okay. Put all the rest of  your endorsements. Okay.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. How do you determine what your best endorsements  are?  

AJ Harper: Like, it's, I mean, it's a mix of factors. Who is gonna be the most  impressive to your readers? Not necessarily the most impressive to you.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. That's the key. Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Who, who do you think your readers will be impressed by?  

Mike Michalowicz: Do you, I guess you could survey your readers too, right? I  guess a little bit much, I don’t know. 

AJ Harper: You should know.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: At this stage when you're getting into our moves, yeah. You should  know. You should know who your people are going to respect. 

Yeah. Right. Yeah. They might not know who the person is, but they might  respect the pedigree. They might respect the, the credentials in terms of PhD or,  or md. They might respect if it says bestselling author. So the attribution matters  because even if people don't know the name, they might at least understand,  okay, this is the CEO of Google.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that person's name, but that's impresses. CEO of  Google.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. One thing I do in consideration of endorsements is.  What will be received by readers as most impactful, but really also diversity of  the endorsements.  

AJ Harper: That's really important as well. You can't do, don't be that person  who has just all dudes on the back cover. 

Right. All white dudes. Or  

Mike Michalowicz: all white dudes. Yeah. So I intentionally have male, female  people of color. Even though there may be a white dude that is the more  recognizable name. . If it messes with that balance, I, yeah, I don't include that.  Yeah.  

AJ Harper: That's an important, that's an important note about inclusivity for  sure. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: And then if it, if, if all things being equal, right, so you've got a  diverse group and they're all impressive, then you're gonna choose the  endorsement that speaks directly to the thing that the reader is trying to fix.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, I like that.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. So you don't want, you're gonna want too flowery or edgy or  whatever your vibe is, you're gonna, oh, I love that endorsement from so and so,  but is your reader really gonna be moved by it? 

Because this says, this person's wrote a masterpiece. The reader doesn't freaking  care. The re with, at least with prescriptive nonfiction, is different for fiction.  Then they're looking for the different kind of thing. Right? But what they're  looking for in an endorsement is this person has an answer. 

Right. That there's some, there's some genius solution in here. 

Mike Michalowicz: When you get that, and I'm not trying to go too far into  endorsements 'cause this now extends beyond just the back cover. But when you  get that Stephen Pressfield, everyone will get their number one endorsement. So  for me, it's Simon Sinek. 

Do you use that? 

AJ Harper: Really, Simon Sinek? Because I thought it was Michael Gerber all  those years ago.  

Mike Michalowicz: Up to that point it was, but Simon Sinek. So it changed.  But Simon Sinek's, like, if there was ever a patron saint for entrepreneurship,  

AJ Harper: that's a pretty good one.  

Mike Michalowicz: And that was fully him. Like I, you know, there was no  like, Hey, can you gimme a couple ideas for an endorsement? Or what were you  Oh yeah, yeah. It was, it sounds like some endorsements can transcend your  Stephen Pressfield transcends the back cover. Yeah, it's on today's podcast. Like  do we have the liberty to use endorsements beyond just the back cover?  

AJ Harper: We need permission, as you know, all too well. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. 

AJ Harper: And have shared on this podcast the trouble you got into with Seth.  Seth Godin.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: If you have permission, I mean, most people don't expect you to  only put it in one place, but. You know, Seth Godin did say, yeah, yeah. X, Y,  Z. That is important to him.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I guess you could, like we're talking  about Stephen Pressfield's endorsement of you on the air, that is appropriate. You don't have to say, Hey, I'm, you know, when it comes up in conversation  that you endorse my book.  

AJ Harper: Yeah, I can talk. Yeah, for sure. Just, but you know what, listen,  there's a person that we both know. 

Mike Michalowicz: mm-hmm.  

AJ Harper: Who has endorsements from both of us on their website.  Mike Michalowicz: Mm-hmm.  

AJ Harper: Which you may not realize this. I don't think you do. That make it  seem,  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, we're endorsing them.  

AJ Harper: Mm-hmm.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. That's the problem.  

AJ Harper: But here's the thing that make it so it's fine for us to be endorsing  them for the work they do, but that person has now affiliated with a publishing  company that is subpar and it makes it look like we endorse that publishing  company. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, geez.  

AJ Harper: Mm-hmm. I'll tell you off air.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. I'm really curious.  

AJ Harper: And so that's, I think why Seth did that, because if you use a Seth  Godin quote, but you just put it on your business page. Right. It looks like that  per he is advocating for you, your services.  

Mike Michalowicz: Right. 

AJ Harper: I'm certain that's why he's done that.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. 

AJ Harper: Because people are using it for everything.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah.  

AJ Harper: And it's not clear that it's for the book.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, that's, yeah. That's interesting.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. And I, you know,  

Mike Michalowicz: And I get call, I do get calls from people. They say, Mike,  you endorse so-and-so. I'm like, I  

AJ Harper: I don't. 

Mike Michalowicz: I don’t think so. And I look it up. I'm like, no. So there's  some just outright lies. 

AJ Harper: There are, but I, I think, you know, if you're going to use  somebody's endorsement in a graphic or something on your website, it's cool, as  long as they haven't said otherwise, but make sure that. It says in the attribution  that that is for the book.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Not for your services.  

Mike Michalowicz: A hundred percent. A short bio, particularly for a  paperback. You're, you're saying as few as one or two sentences?  

AJ Harper: Could be one sentence.  

Mike Michalowicz: How, what would be a one sentence bio? 

AJ Harper: Well, for you it would be Mike Michalowicz is the author of 10  books now 12. We've written 12 together, but two were revised and expanded.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, it's nine, let's just say nine titles. 10. The, the money,  probably number 10. So yeah, so Author of 10.  

AJ Harper: So author of 10. Mike Michalowicz Writes For, for, or  Entrepreneurs, or Mike Mitz is the author of 10 books on entrepreneurship. 

Or Mike, you could even. Mention your mission. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mike,  I'm, I'll be inclined to that. Mike Michalowicz is on a mission to eradicate  entrepreneurial poverty. He's the author of 10 books. 

Mike Michalowicz: yeah. Yeah.  

AJ Harper: So here's the other thing. When you get to be on your level, Mike,  you don't need to say all that stuff. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Right, because the most consumers will say, oh, I've  heard of this guy or his other books.  

AJ Harper: It's also lets me know that you actually have gravitas because you  are not telling me all the freaking things,  

Mike Michalowicz: so I don't need to say it.  

AJ Harper: You don't need to say it.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

AJ Harper: If you need to say it, 

Mike Michalowicz: You ain't got it. 

AJ Harper: Right. So for mine, I would honestly just put AJ Harper is an  editor and publishing strategist. She's the author of Write A Must-read.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm-hmm. 

AJ Harper: But that book, the book is a must read. I don't have to put that  there then.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Right.  

AJ Harper: So on that one I would probably let's see. It's an author and  publishing strategist who helps authors write books people love and  recommend. Done.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm-hmm. 

AJ Harper: That's it. And I'm okay with that. I don't need you to know  everything about me. 

Mike Michalowicz: And you don't need to put all the accolades.  

AJ Harper: Half the time, I don't even tell people about my association with  Heroic, which is a big ass deal.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Half the time I don't even tell people that I built an award-winning  publishing company with my co-founders and sold it. I, you don't always need  to tell them all the things.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: When you, when it's shorter, it speaks to gravitas.  Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. I yeah. Good. 

One thing with gravitas, I was talking with a guy and at an event. He was gonna  speak later. He said, oh, what do you do? And he's like, oh, I'm a speaker.  Everybody, he's sharing his kind of background story and stuff, but really trying  to puff himself up. He, and he goes, what do you do? I said, yeah, I, I do some  speaking too. 

And that was it. Because I you, I just didn't want, I didn't want 

AJ Harper: Yeah, you don't have to. No.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. He's like, oh, that's great. He's like, you know, good  luck with that.  

AJ Harper: Listen, we could always use luck.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Good luck with that. Thanks. Thanks. If, if you're  self-published, if you're with a traditional publisher or hybrid, that will have a  designer design team. Right. Okay. We have Peter talking at Page Two. 

AJ Harper: But some hybrids, they don't do a good job on,  

Mike Michalowicz: It's not traditional, don't do a good job.  

AJ Harper: No, it's true. 

Mike Michalowicz: because my sense is the traditional, they hire the, the quote  unquote kids outta school without the experience. And the biggest  disappointment I've had was. 

They made the covers a standalone and didn't consider the series of other books.  And it's like the, it's such a juxtaposition, it's abrupt  

AJ Harper: And it doesn't make any sense if you've done most of your books at  one house.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. It makes sense. If you switched houses. Because then you  don't want, they don't, they wanna have their own stamp on it, which makes,  which is cool. 

Or like with the money habit, that's actually an expanded readership. So one  could argue you could have a different color palette there. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Interestingly though, we chose the same color  palette, Andrea, from our team in collaboration. We talked about that last week.  Reached out to Peter Cocking and said, here's the colors we use. 

And they said, oh, that's a good idea. And they used some of those colors. So  interesting just to show when you see Profit First and the money habit.  Together. They wanted to show that there is a connection, but they still wanted  to, well,  

AJ Harper: if you look at all of Brene Brown's books, well, except for maybe  the early ones, but they're all in the same palette. 

They look like they're pastels or something, right? Mm, no.  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh,  

AJ Harper: Why did you say that? Because, just 'cause she's a girl? 

Mike Michalowicz: No, no, just, that's what comes to mind. Dare no, dare to  lead or something.  

AJ Harper: That's not pastels.  

Mike Michalowicz: I gotta, I gotta pull it up now. 

AJ Harper: Go ahead and pull it up. But the color palette is Mike Michalowicz: She’s a girl. 

AJ Harper: Complimentary. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh yeah. Dar de pat de lead does not  

AJ Harper: listen. I've got a thing with this. I've got two authors who are, huh?  Professors.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. 

AJ Harper: Okay. Professors who have, who are women?  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Who were given girly covers, quote unquote. And I'm stereotyping  here. Okay. I am not gender binary right now. I'm totally lost in the gender  binary. It infuriates me.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm.  

AJ Harper: Why, why do they make a cover? It's a woman author and they  make it pink or purple.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Especially when these are, this is, these are not topics about, it's  not chick lit. It's not about an issue that, that's specific to women, it's like  leadership.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: You know, like it's, so yeah, that became a cover emergency,  actually. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. It's… people make all sorts of just really ridiculous  mistakes.  

Mike Michalowicz: There are no pastels for Brene Brown.  AJ Harper: That’s correct.  

Mike Michalowicz: I'm sorry. I am sorry. If if you're not using a professional  traditional or hybrid, you can hire your own book designer. A cover designer,  

AJ Harper: you can still hire your own cover, you know, you even if you have  one.

Mike Michalowicz: Right.  

AJ Harper: You had Liz.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: Remember a pumpkin plan  

Mike Michalowicz: every, every one of my books,  

AJ Harper: the giant monster pumpkin that they gave us.  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh yeah. Penguin came back.  

AJ Harper: That looked like something out of like, a bad horror movie.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Well, actually how that came about was I. They first  came up with these horrible, they said, here's a pumpkin split in half. 

It's like  

AJ Harper: Also the one with the giant monster teeth.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, no. Well, that's the one that first Liz, I said, Liz, I  want a pumpkin juxtaposed against a cityscape to give a sense of size. And so  she did a little thing and I said, this is kind of where we're going. And then they  made this monster. It's like, no, no, it needs to be like this. 

Nice thing. A kind, a kind pumpkin.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. They, yeah. So you can actually work with a cover designer  to show the publisher what you're trying to do, and then they might take it over.  But you're gonna have to spend the money on that. They're not going to  reimburse you for that. If you're self-publishing you might say, oh, let me cut  some corners. 

I'm gonna go with this graphic designer I already work with. Don't do that. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,  

AJ Harper: don't do that. One of the worst things you could do is get a cover  designer who doesn't have a lot of cover experience.  

Mike Michalowicz: Ugh.  

AJ Harper: Just don't do it. No. There's too many things that they have to  consider that they are not thinking about. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,  

AJ Harper: and not, not because maybe they're not great, maybe they're great,  but you need people who know what they're doing.  

Mike Michalowicz: In my experience with the cover design, it starts with the  front. But then the second thing is the back and then the spine is built. And it's  gotta be fluid. And a lot of, at least when it comes to dust covers, a lot of 'em  flow together. 

Little hack too is you can have an interior, so anyone listening in if you have my  book, which is called Get Different, if. Take off the dust cover and look at the  inside. There's a little technique you can discover. You can make posters out of  it. And if you don't have it, I challenge you. Get a copy of, get different right  now 'cause it's probably your best marketing advice you'll get for your author  career. 

And then check out the inside of the cover. That's one thing we did too, that  very few people do. There's this unused space. Any of the don'ts you have for  the back cover, we  

AJ Harper: did a lot of them. It's, you know, don't, not, don't have too much  text. Yeah. Not, you don't want a too long description or too long bio. 

But I also think don't wait till the last minute. Right. That's a, that's a big don't.  Right, right. I think people wait to do back cover until the last minute they focus  on cover. Then they haven't sorted the back cover and now they're here. They're  in a hurry. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And then the, and then you come out with crap. 

AJ Harper: Yeah.  

Mike Michalowicz: No. Did you hear this Amazon, if you self-publish, is not  listing pre-orders for self-published books?  

AJ Harper: POD books?  

Mike Michalowicz: Yes. They're, 

AJ Harper: Since when,  

Mike Michalowicz: There was a change in the last couple months?  

AJ Harper: No, I've had people who have been able to do it in the last couple  months.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm. Okay. We gotta look into,  

AJ Harper: but you have to go through Ingram Spark. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, through KDP?  

AJ Harper: No, you can’t. 

Mike Michalowicz: Oh? 

AJ Harper: No, no. Here's the deal. KDP does not let you do pre-order.  Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: So it's kdp, but if you do Ingram Spark, you can do pre-order.  Mike Michalowicz: You can do pre-order. Okay. Yeah. ,  

AJ Harper: That's the problem is kdp and then what you what I'm advising. I, I  might change this some days, so if you're listening to this two years from now  I, you know, seriously, Amazon is like, we're constantly monitoring this. What I  advise right now is to do the pre-order through IngramSpark at least eight weeks  before publication. Because I'm having some problems with some authors that  

Ingram Spark will say it can take up to six weeks for the metadata to filter  through all of the different retailers. 

They used to hit it on Amazon within a day.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm.  

AJ Harper: Amazon sometimes makes it difficult, and I'm not… Listen, to  Amazon. If you're listening, you don't have to be jerky. It doesn't have to be like  this. It can, it can be a good relationship.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: But what. And it isn't always the case. Like you might have smooth  silk, but then I've got enough authors who are having to wait pro, you know,  four plus weeks. 

So Ingram Spark says six, so give yourself a cushion of two, besides which that  then gives Amazon time to order books before your launch. So you don't wanna  run outta books at launch. So do it on IngramSpark. Then a couple days before  release also put it up on KDP print.  

Mike Michalowicz: Mm.  

AJ Harper: That way if you do run out of stock, it's also on Amazon and they  can pull from there. So that's my advice for now. But yeah, it's been a lot.  Amazon doesn't offer pre-order like that because they don't have the adv. They  discontinued advantage.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. But that's juicy. Thank you.  

AJ Harper: Sure. 

Mike Michalowicz: I have some updates on the money habit. Okay. So I was  searching for profit first on YouTube, I can't remember why. And up came the audio says Profit First by Mike Michalowicz. It's audio. And I looked at the  video, it's a six- or eight-hour video and sure enough, it's me reading the entire  book. So what people are doing and, and then it's like, this is me. I looked up  like 15 books I could think off top of my head. 

They're all up there, the audio books. So what someone's doing, I presume, is  they're purchasing the audio book once, they're then transferring the audio  recording in some capacity, uploading YouTube. They have a static picture  there. But as you listen to YouTube, it stops and there's a commercial. So  they're actually making money off your book so you don't get anything. 

Because this is someone else broadcasting your book. So it's like,  AJ Harper: okay, are they doing the whole book or are they just— Mike Michalowicz: The entire book. 

AJ Harper: So it's not like a psych situation like where they, no entire book  and there, and  

Mike Michalowicz: there's hundreds of comments in my book. Oh, this is  great. So happy I didn't have to buy it. 

AJ Harper: Oh my God.  

Mike Michalowicz: So I'm like, okay, how do I make this my advantage? I'm  like, oh. Do this to myself. Here's what I'm doing for the money habit. We have  a videographer coming to the studio I'm doing on common mode. Also the same  place you went for the recording.  

AJ Harper: I love those guys.  

Mike Michalowicz: I love those guys too. Yeah. They've agreed we're gonna  film me doing the actual reading.  

AJ Harper: Oh my gosh. 

Mike Michalowicz: So you're gonna see, we're gonna upload a free copy of the  Money Habit onto YouTube. Because someone else is gonna do it. We're gonna  do it first and it's gonna be a video of me reading it. Including all the bonus  

materials and some outtakes and and stuff. 

AJ Harper: Oh my god. That is major,  

Mike Michalowicz: right?  

AJ Harper: Huh?  

Mike Michalowicz: And then this way, if it's gonna be out there, we get AJ Harper: So you're gonna load it? Is that gonna go up on launch day?  Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. It'll probably go up the same day. Yeah.  AJ Harper: So then you should monetize it.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, we will. It will run commercials. Yeah. It's gonna be  on our YouTube channel. 

But first of all, I, I don't care so much. Monetizing is nice. I still want other  people. It's criminal. It's literally criminal.  

AJ Harper: I love this.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. So I just encourage others.  

AJ Harper: That is a super hot idea.  

Mike Michalowicz: Thank you. I got a hot. 

AJ Harper: Love it.  

Mike Michalowicz: I haven't had it hot in a few months. That's good.  AJ Harper: I’m totally, I'm gonna, yes. I'm gonna tell my peeps. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.  

AJ Harper: That is great. Hmm. Now you've got me thinking.  Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. It's, it's a little bit of a grateful dead trick.  AJ Harper: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  

Mike Michalowicz: And just for our listeners, if they don't know people were  bootlegging Grateful Dead concerts like they did any other concert, and all  these bands were trying to dissuade that. Grateful Dead gave those folks the best  seats and that's how they became so popular. People were Yeah. Encouraged it.  The best audio. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. Encouraged it. Other updates for the  Money Habit. We are also working on a founding family. Promotion. We did  this for fix this next because we're gonna have a certification for the money  habit. 

We have it for fix this next. People can pay for the certification early and get  listed in the book. So it's a way, oh, so we're gonna raise funds and what we're  gonna do is then distribute the book. They'll get copies of the book, but the  benefit to them is they can say, oh, I'm one of the founding family members. 

So it's added credibility to them. 'cause they're listed in the book.  

AJ Harper: So are these people who are profit first professionals that are gonna  also be a money habit?  

Mike Michalowicz: They're gonna, if they choose, choose, yeah. If they choose  to be certified. Yeah. But also someone that's just a personal finance expert that  wants to share. 

AJ Harper: Right. It doesn't have to be a cpa, a  

Mike Michalowicz: yeah. Or content. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Mm.  AJ Harper: That's smart. Yeah. And is there any other updates? 

Mike Michalowicz: I told you earlier, I know this episode or prior, but I'm also  gonna interview other authors on personal finance inside the book. We're  talking about doing audio and sound effects. 

I'm a big fan of what who did with his audio books. I guess I can think it was  Malcolm Gladwell. It sounds like a podcast when you're listening to one of his  audio books. Sound effects. . So we're looking music and music and stuff. So  we're looking into that to see if it works to make. 

The money habit. More of a podcast sound. And a little bit less of a book read.  It seems like they're more consumable, more engaging, more fun. We are doing  the bulk buys, so that's officially done. Oh, here's a technique or trick with bulk  

buys. Very few people wanna buy 200 books or 500 books, but it's interesting  how many people, organizations are willing to pay 10,000 or 15,000 for an  education package. 

So we're selling a $15,000 money habit education package where we train your  team and all this stuff. And it happens to include 400 bucks or whatever the  number is. Yeah. Because when it's, when you're selling quantity of books, I can  see on the shelf here, I don't even know what book it is, there's a stack of books  that've been sitting there for years. 

Yeah, and you have it at your house too, you, when I was there, you got books.  So now I have an obligation to somehow. Distribute these or get rid of them.  And it's just overwhelming for people. 

AJ Harper: well, I bought those on purpose.  

Mike Michalowicz: No, I know you did, but, but they sit there. You  AJ Harper: Yeah, but mine are, mine are to give to retreat people. 

Mike Michalowicz: Understood. Yeah. And you're doing that. I just, I think  people get, get overwhelmed saying, gosh, what am I gonna do with a hundred  books or something?  

AJ Harper: Oh, see, I've bought, you know, books to support other authors and  I just have them donate it if I don't wanna give 'em. 

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. That's a good thing at this time. But  

AJ Harper: Hey, I just thought of something while you were talking.  Mike Michalowicz: Okay.  

AJ Harper: We have those interviews.  

Mike Michalowicz: With the guests. With people, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The  AJ Harper: Mike, why don't you sample. Some of the quotes.  Mike Michalowicz: Oh, inside, inside the, that's a good idea.  AJ Harper: From the recordings  

Mike Michalowicz: into the book itself.  

AJ Harper: Especially with the folks who are using it. 

Like Dom or Justin. Come on, genius. That's hot. Come on. That's hot. Like yes,  with the, yes, the financial advisors. But you could also have like, here's a  snippet from that interview with Justin  

Mike Michalowicz: that's hot. Oh, hold on. Watch. I'm gonna show you  something I do. We're gonna do this live on air because this is, I track good  ideas. 

So watch this. Hey, Kaus, AJ just had an amazing idea for the money habit. We  have interviews with the people that are in the book. What if we sample those  she's suggesting and put them on the audio so people can get their real voice in  there? What do you think? Brilliant.  

AJ Harper: I love it. I brilliant. You're gonna have a whole multi, you're gonna  have, you know what and common mode can help put that together. 

Mike Michalowicz: Totally. Because 

AJ Harper: that's what they do.  

Mike Michalowicz: Oh, it's so sexy.  

AJ Harper: It's, that is so good. I might actually listen to that audio book. I  don't think I've ever listened to any of your audio books.  

Mike Michalowicz: Really? My audio books are more popular than my print  books as compared to my computer.  

AJ Harper: I know. 'cause you're always riffing and doing extra and I can't  Mike Michalowicz: tell. 

Many people say like I've been on interviews. Right. Get Mike's books, but only  gets audio books. Are that good?  

AJ Harper: Yeah. Wow. I'm kind of okay. I would definitely listen.  Mike Michalowicz: That's brilliant.  

AJ Harper: I should listen, but you know, we're always working on the next  thing.  

Mike Michalowicz: No, I know, I know, I know, I know. And you don't have  to,  

AJ Harper: but this one I would, if I could hear how they kind of blended all  that would be so cool. 

So smart. So  

Mike Michalowicz: smart,  

AJ Harper: so good.

Mike Michalowicz: We are recording in August, so right now today is July  23rd when we're recording this episode. In about three weeks, I'm in the studio,  which is. A little bit early. Typically we go through proof reading.  

AJ Harper: Yeah. You usually are gonna get read. Well, will they have past  pages by then? 

Mike Michalowicz: That's what we're hoping. If not, did you  AJ Harper: tell them that's Yeah. Yeah. They  

Mike Michalowicz: know. They know. Okay. Otherwise, I gotta go off of the  edits that we're in right now.  

AJ Harper: Oh, you don't want that?  

Mike Michalowicz: Well, yeah, but it's pretty darn close, which is okay. 'cause  I riff on the books anyway. Damn. But I have no other time to do it. 

AJ Harper: Oh, I see.  

Mike Michalowicz: I'm traveling. Redon callously up until dec, I gotta get this  book done by the audio by end of October for the January launch. I'm not  around. I'm not around.  

AJ Harper: Oh. So now is it, this is it. This  

Mike Michalowicz: is it. So. 

AJ Harper: So Stevie August, you driving over to common mode  Mike Michalowicz: in the heat in that  

AJ Harper: to the strip mall. Behind the strip mall.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And my favorite part is like, okay, we're gonna start  recording. Turn off the air conditioner. Joey. 

AJ Harper: No, they're, they're the best over there though. They're amazing.  

Mike Michalowicz: But they literally cut off the air conditioner.  AJ Harper: Yes, they are. Yes. It's  

Mike Michalowicz: there's a plane coming in. Hold on. 

We have, oh, we don't know what we're talking about next week, so I can't share  that. That's to be determined. I  

AJ Harper: couldn't FI didn't, you know what, sometimes I, I'm super  organized and sometimes it's like, eh,  

Mike Michalowicz: yeah, but you know, we, we do these three, you know what  AJ Harper: we'll talk about?  

Mike Michalowicz: What's that?  

AJ Harper: We're gonna talk about? 

Some of the gender issues. Oh, that's right. We said we wanna do, yeah, let's get  that.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay,  

AJ Harper: let's do that. Fiery.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. We're gonna have a conversation about gender  issues, but particularly AJ, you have a perspective on how you've been  approached or treated by people and it's astonishing Uh huh. You  

AJ Harper: know, that's why I am AJ. you know, my name is Anjanette. Mike Michalowicz: I know that  

AJ Harper: well, but I go by AJ 

Mike Michalowicz: to be gender neutral. 

AJ Harper: Gender neutral,  

Mike Michalowicz: okay.  

AJ Harper: So that I could get jobs and be treated with dignity and respect.  And you know, that was 21 years ago that I made that choice.  

Mike Michalowicz: This is 2025 and you still,  

AJ Harper: I I mean it's, it's astonishing. Yeah, I 

Mike Michalowicz: Astonishing.  

AJ Harper: I think why you should listen to that episode isn't, isn't to hear me  try not to curse or get fiery if you like, that sort of thing, but just because I think  we have to open our eyes to some of the challenges that happen in this, in the  publishing space, but also I think in our corner of the publishing space.  

Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,  

AJ Harper: around thought leadership.  

Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Well, we'll talk about that in next week's episode. I  said it in the beginning, I'm gonna say it at the end. Go to AJ harper.com right  now. Do not pass go. Just go do it. 

Also, we have a website for this podcast specifically, it's dwtbpodcast.com.  We have free resources there that AJ's prepared specifically for you. I have an  imprint called Simplified, so if you're an author in the Entrepreneur space,  maybe we should talk. It's with page two. You can reach out to us with any  questions you have about the show, or simplified at hello@dwtbpodcast.com. 

Don't write that book. Please, please, please don't write that book. Write the  greatest book you can.