In this episode, AJ and Mike answer a reader email in which they’re asked to describe the emotional journey they each face when writing a book. It’s a deeply personal episode where they both expose the highs and lows, the exalted moments, and the suffering that comes from pouring one’s heart out to write a must-read.
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Sustainability Simplified, by Josh Spodek
The Gap and the Gain, by Dan Sullivan
AJ Harper, website
AJ’s Socials:
Mike Michalowicz, website
Mike’s Socials:
Episode 106: “Emotional Journey”
Mike Michalowicz:
Welcome back to the Don't Write That book podcast where you can learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship. Follow along with us as we give you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts. Myself, Mike Michalowicz and AJ Harper.
Mike Michalowicz:
You know what's nice, AJ
AJ Harper:
Did it again.
Mike Michalowicz:
Stop. Or should we just go? Let's just go.
AJ Harper:
I, I, okay. Well, let me, lemme just say, let's be real. You and I are gonna pick a date. Yeah. We're gonna try to go into our calendars, which looks like, you know, insanity. And then Sade and Erin are gonna be like, nah,
Mike Michalowicz:
Nah, no. Alright. So--
AJ Harper:
Do you know what I mean?
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. So they're still, they're still gonna come back and say,
Mike Michalowicz:
Here's what you gotta do.
AJ Harper:
Why did you, why did you think you could do that?
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah.
AJ Harper:
So I think what we have to do is say, Hey, this is what we're looking to do. Yeah. Lovely, talented, supportive, Erin and Sade. Could you find a day where we could do a live DWTB podcast and then they will tell us the date?
Mike Michalowicz:
Perfect. Okay. That's, that's the way to do it. Don't you think that's, that's a better way to do it?
AJ Harper:
They're still gonna be like, yeah, it's nice that you figured that out, but No.
Mike Michalowicz:
But no, that's not gonna work. Okay. That's better. You know what distracted me? 'cause I was like, oh, during this break, we'll cover that. In came an order for the collector's edition of The Money Habit, and they keep dripping in every few hours for the last week or two. So we started this promotion and what it is, and I I hope every author listening in does something like this. There are opportunities to promote demand for your book without sacrificing demand during the launch day. So there's traditional pre-orders where I say, Hey, I have my new book coming out. It's called The Money Habit. Please order it today. But when the launch comes for me to say, Hey, the money habit's now here, it's available. Please buy it. You'll say, well, I already bought it. So the question that I ask is, well, what are people willing to purchase today and builds momentum and encourages them to purchase the book on the launch day? I wanna generate revenue because I use that revenue to sell the books or market the books to
AJ Harper:
Marketing dollars, pardon
Mike Michalowicz:
Me,
AJ Harper:
Marketing dollars.
Mike Michalowicz:
Marketing dollars to facilitate further distribution to sometimes even subsidized, like a bulk move. So maybe there's a school that says, Hey, we'd like to get it into our high school and we want, you know, 50 students reading the money habit. We have no budget. We can use it for things like that. So, you know. Marketing, distribution.
Mike Michalowicz:
So one way to do it is through your ARCs and ARC is an advanced reader copy. So an A RC. And traditionally what ARCs are used for is they go out to the media. So maybe podcasters or, or traditional media for people to check out this book and then perhaps write about it, review it, maybe get on your podcast. So we bought extra ARCs and we stamp the ones that come off the print run as the first one. Literally the first one that comes out of the box is the first one off the print run, second and fourth. Third and fourth. And we stamp 'em and we certify them. And we did a 250 that are, I think, certified pre-release collectors that we call 'em collectors editions. They still have typos in it. It's not the final copy content still and has been modified and changed.
Mike Michalowicz:
So it's not the final book, but people get a sneak peek at the book, you know, up to six months in advance with these ARCs, or four months in advance in our case. And so we went out there and I think we have sold, I I wanna say 15,000 to $20,000 of these ARCs at this point. It's, it's a, it's, I was it blown away? And Kelsey said, yeah, we're using that to facilitate further marketing of the books, but also those people that chose to purchase it, they're, the benefit they're getting is a very
early pre-read. So early access, they're the early adopters of a book. Secondly is they may still choose to buy the book when it launches because they can compare the two and see what's, how it's changed has enhanced. And maybe it has even more significance. Maybe it acts as a totem of some sort, a reminder of their commitment to, in this case, financial independence.
AJ Harper:
I mean, I feel like it's super fans though are getting collectors' edition. Yeah. Mike Super fans. Yeah. I gotta a, okay, wait a minute. You said typos. At what point did they do the galley? This galley is another term for it. Yeah. At what point did they do the arc?
Mike Michalowicz:
The galley was readied about a month to six weeks ago, I believe.
AJ Harper:
Okay. So let me say, you do wanna get the collector's edition if it's still available. You're only doing 250 by the time this airs. They might be gone, but definitely check. But
Mike Michalowicz:
So we get it. We deleted a story, we added a couple lines. Like it, it's,
AJ Harper:
We moved some stuff around to the, to the point where we annoyed the publisher. We were moving some stuff around. So the
Mike Michalowicz:
Sequence changed.
AJ Harper:
If it, if it, if it's a version, I think it is, don't forget that this is the one where I found the most errors.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, yeah. Right, right. And I even sent you, do you still have that picture? I, so I score-boarded AJ and I, we do our review of the books or edits the books together for the first time. I didn't do a manual copy. Oh, there it is. So I have a little scoreboard and I framed it.
AJ Harper:
I keep it, it's prominent. It's prominent right behind me. So I can tell people all the time that I won.
Mike Michalowicz:
And you know what you dominated and it says it on there, is you're the echo queen. So echoing and when writing is, when you use the same word repeatedly when you could replace it with a different word
AJ Harper:
Unintentionally.
Mike Michalowicz:
Unintentionally. Yeah. Right. Unintentionally. And so you were catching them left and right. And I didn't, I didn't even like look for echoes. So you were the,
AJ Harper:
There's good echoes and there's unintentional echoes.
Mike Michalowicz:
Right. I have a dream as a good echo, by the way,
AJ Harper:
I'm, I'm really having a problem with my hair right now.
Mike Michalowicz:
With your hair. All right. Fix your hair. I'm gonna,
AJ Harper:
I know it's not a thing, but I don't know how to do this with these headphones. And now that you reminded me that you're maybe doing something with this video footage, I feel
Mike Michalowicz:
You want, you wanna look the part?
AJ Harper:
I just think it's a mess. I think we'll just keep the mess. Okay. It's fine. Fine. It's part, it's probably fits my personality that I, there's no way, incidentally, can I just say one thing? Yeah. Y'all. Okay. Listen, Amy Poehler has a podcast called Good Hang.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yep.
AJ Harper:
The very first e one of the things she does is she has a conversation on Zoom or in the studio with a friend of the guest and asks that friend, what should I ask the guest? And it's cute. It's a cute little thing. She does the very first episode of Good Hang. She has a number of people Seth Meyers and the only one I other, there are a couple people on to talk about Tina Fey and say, what should she ask Tina Fey. And one of the people she has is Rachel Dratch, who is on SNL. And in lot of movies
Mike Michalowicz:
AJ Harper:
But it happened totally by accident that Rachel Dratch could not get her headphones to work. Yeah. And she got and got stuck in them. But then also she forgot she had food delivery.
Mike Michalowicz:
She had food delivery. That is so funny.
AJ Harper:
She had food delivery. The dog barks. She's caught in the, caught in the headphones.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh my gosh. She's so funny.
AJ Harper:
Yeah, it's, you'll laugh. Just, you'll just laugh. Just watching the, and then of course, watching all of them lose it because they love her and she's being, I guess, apparently exactly as Rachel is all the time.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, I bet. I bet.
AJ Harper:
Anyway, just had to put that plug. 'cause That's, if you need just, I need to feel good. I need to laugh. Go do that.
Mike Michalowicz:
So today's episode,
AJ Harper:
What are we talking about? Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
AJ Harper:
Oh, thanks. I admire about you that you're always willing to learn so you don't feel like, you know, we've all been in those rooms where people say, that's not, you know, I don't need to learn anymore. I need to pay attention to this person. You're always paying attention. You're always paying attention. You're always taking notes. You're always finding things fascinating. You're always thinking what you can gain from listening to someone and looking for that nugget.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, thank you. That means the world to me. We, we got an email from Josh Spodek.
AJ Harper:
He's my, one of my students.
Mike Michalowicz:
He's an author of Sustainability Simplified.
AJ Harper:
Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes. I've shared, I've shared this on a prior podcast. He started a behavior in me that is now ingrained and it's picking up garbage. I do it constantly, including today, anywhere. And I, I used to say to myself, when I'm in my town of Boonton, I will always pick up the garbage. And this was direction from Josh. This real simple process, no judgment of anyone else. I don't care if anyone else does it. I don't care if someone throws garbage down. I mean, I hope they don't. But I'm picking garbage up. I'm not gonna rub it in someone's face like I'm doing something superior. But I notice this behavior was so ingrained. I was in Asbury Park, New Jersey for a retreat, and I'm walking back after a jog from the beach to the house we're at, which is six blocks away. I came back with, I didn't have any container or anything. I was a handful of garbage. Put it in the garbage. And I, it was, it's almost subconscious now. So, Josh, if you're listening in, thanks for that.
AJ Harper:
Should we, let's read what he sent us.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Could you read it?
AJ Harper:
Yeah. So he sent us this email. I have a request for a new episode. I'd love to hear your takes on the emotional journey of writing and its peaks. I hear quotes about and have felt the difficulty of writing the torment, of being unable to find the right way to say it, the fear of failing. I've also felt the euphoria of nailing an idea I've struggled with for months, realizing I found something the world will value. If you're open to share, I would love to hear the experiences of two experienced writers. And if you've had the emotional journeys and peaks, or if you've heard the emotional journeys and peaks of other experienced writers. So Josh, we're gonna talk about that today.
Mike Michalowicz:
You know what we likened it to? And we were prepping for the show. I mentioned to you, I, I'm, I'm amazed what it trap you are for stories. 'cause I did share with you that I did the Appalachian Trail parts of, it's called a sectional hike with my son Jake. We are looking to do it again this year. Another section. A different section. Yeah. Different section. Some people hike the entire trail. It's, it's all the way from Georgia to Maine. And so we hiked, I called it the Bear-to-bear hike. It isn't a SPECT hike, it was just, we started in what was called Bear Mountain New York. And the goal was to hike to,
AJ Harper: I love Bear Mountain. Oh, it's gorgeous. That's into the, that's my neck of the woods.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. So we started Exactly. It is, so we started in Bear Mountain, New York, hiking south. It's called Sobo Southbound to Bear Swamp. And we passed all the Nobos northbound who were hiking. So many people start off in the spring. In the early spring, you start off in Georgia 'cause it's warmer. And as you hike north, the climate's warming up as you go. So when you get to Maine while it's in the summer, you sometimes you even get there in the fall. It's still the warmer weather for the hike. What's so interesting is the second we started, my wife dropped us off at Bear Mountain, there's like that lodge type thing there. You actually think you can stay there, just drop us off, you can. And so the Appalachian Trail crosses. There's that river, it crosses that bridge and goes into the Bear Mountain Park. So we start in the park and we start hiking up the first mountain filled with backpacks and stuff.
Mike Michalowicz:
And I'll tell you, you are in it within minutes. So my wife drops us off, we put the packs on, say, okay, this will be fun. And now you're starting to feel it and you're sweating, and it's way too hot. And we overpacked and all these different things. By the time we're at the top of the mountain, my son had depleted all of his water supply. And this is the first 45 minutes, our hike, we have an eight-hour hike in front of us before we camp for the first night. He's out of water. I'm halfway through my water, so I'm like, uhoh. And now you're in the middle of nowhere. So we're at the top of the mountain, and now we're on the trail, and there's no one, you occasionally pass someone coming the other way. And it's like, I think we, we might, should we turn around?
Mike Michalowicz:
Like, what should we do? No, we committed this. There's this, this, like, this isn't gonna work. Then we continue hiking. And then you start having this rebound saying, okay, this is not gonna be that bad. And then the first cramp happens, my son's like, ah, my leg. And I'm like, oh gosh, here's the less of the water. And now we're out of water and they're at top of the mountain and they're another mountain. And we, there's no one which feels like for millions of miles. And we're out of water and we are thirsty. And we're like, what do we do? And do we abandon food? Do we, you know, what do we do? And my son goes through the map and there's a, there's a creek that comes down the mountain that runs occasionally. So there's these maps that tell you where water sources are and how often it runs.
Mike Michalowicz:
And sure enough, we find it, and it is a, a fast drip, but it's a drip. And we're like celebrating that we found some source of water. And you can't just stick your tongue under it 'cause of aria or Giardia or whatever, that there's all these bacteria and stuff you gotta put through a filter system. But we're sitting there watching this water filter through and the elation that we're gonna have water again. And you take the first sip and it's the best water you had in your life, and now you're coming down the mountain and you run into someone that's really bizarre and weird and wants to talk with you, and you don't know if you should be near this person. And it's like, what the hell's going on? It is all the emotions. And that was all within the first eight hours
AJ Harper:
Yeah. What I'm hearing though is that you probably didn't prepare as well as you should have.
Mike Michalowicz:
We over-prepared,
AJ Harper:
But then under-prepared and
Mike Michalowicz:
Then under-prepared, which is great. We had way too much weight on, we ran into a hiker. So these hikes go by nicknames. His name, his nickname was Strider. This was actually one of my favorite moments.
AJ Harper:
Oh, is it, they have to give it to you? You can't give it to yourself.
Mike Michalowicz:
You cannot give yourself a name. Someone will give you a name somehow. There's these things called angels.
AJ Harper:
What's your name? Did you get a name?
Mike Michalowicz:
No, I did not get a name. Okay. There is these things called Angel. One of the guys I was with got a name Mouse Trap because a mouse ate through his tent as he was sleeping and curled up with him. So he became Mousetrap. The, there's angels on the trail, they call 'em Trail Angels. And you, you'll come across an opening. Sometimes you, you, the Appalachian Trail crosses
roads and streets just goes through the woods and it just winds on forever. And someone will park along the street as one dude had baked pumpkin bread. It was the best bread I've had in my life. I asked him like, why do you do this? And he, he said, my wife passed away, I think it was like three, four years ago. He's like, this is how I connect with people. And he goes, I, I bake in the night before and I bring it out on the day of, and I meet the coolest people in the planet. And this is my love, my passion.
Mike Michalowicz:
He’s just greeting hikers that come through. And he, and he, it's unbelievable. He's got chairs set up so you can just sit for a little bit and you're exhausted.
AJ Harper:
Aw.
Mike Michalowicz:
And he said he's got trash can that you can give him stuff. We unloaded stuff. We said, listen, we have this gear that we're never gonna use. We have an air mattress. And while it sounds glorious to sleep on an air mattress at night, carrying an air mattress is terrible. And so, like, here's a donation and he'll take those things. The journey is up and down and in retrospect is the greatest thing that I've dealt with my son. I, and I think that's what authorship is. It's when it's all said and done, when there's that book on the shelf and you, you put every ounce of your suffering and joy into it, and you put every ounce of who you are into it. For me, AJ is the greatest thing I've ever done.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. For sure. Making something from nothing and then sharing it with people.
Mike Michalowicz:
I think for you more suffering, is it more suffering? Is it more like, if you had a balance, if you had to say it's X percent suffering, X percent elation, like, what's the emotional breakdown for you?
AJ Harper:
Well, okay. I have a different perspective because I consider the suffering. Like, I welcome the suffering. You know, you have to, I think over time, I've just, I feel like the suffering is a sign that I'm making something. So, yeah, it's, I'm ha I'm experiencing it. It's real. It doesn't feel good. But there's also, I'm, I know, oh, I wouldn't be feeling that if I were just in my regular day to day. Because anytime that I am working on a new project, I'm gonna experience both suffering and joy. But if I'm not working on a project, I'm not gonna experience either of those things in the same way. I'll experience other suffering and other joy that life hands us. But when it comes to making something, I feel like they go hand in hand. And so it sucks. But I, you know, I, I tend to manage the suffering with dark humor
Mike Michalowicz:
The, the new one you're doing is Page Two?
AJ Harper:
And another one. Oh yeah,
Mike Michalowicz:
Another one. So I know you're doing one, Page Two, you're keeping a top secret. So I don't know what it's about. But I know it's big. I had no idea. What's the second book about?
AJ Harper:
Also Top Secret?
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh. Two Top Secrets.
AJ Harper:
Well, just because the way I roll is I talk about suffering. I will suffer greatly if I share too much about books while I'm in the process of figuring out what they are.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, that's interesting.
AJ Harper:
I, I, I, I, the worst suffering I could have is that I lose interest. Oh. And I'm just, ugh. I don't feel like it anymore. Who cares? Yeah. And if I talk too much, I don't think I need to write it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, that's interesting.
AJ Harper:
And now, once I've got a handle on what the book is, I'll talk about it all day. But in the creation mode, I don't wanna get into it too much because then when I sit down to work, I'm like, ah, I already worked that out. I worked that out when I was talking to Mike. So who cares if I write it? And that's just something I learned about myself. I'm just quirky like that. So I have to be quiet and keep it close to the vest. And then once I feel like I know what this book is, I have a total handle on it. Let me talk. I'm gonna talk about it all day. So that's just, that's just something weird. But I am experiencing the suffering right now because I'm also writing two books at the same time, which I thought I was done doing
Mike Michalowicz:
For me,
AJ Harper:
When I quit ghost writing.
Mike Michalowicz:
The, the suffering, how I, I think I would define it as, it's a exhaustion. It's a feeling of, is this, is this enough already? Is it there? It's actually, it's the sense of the book is degrading as I'm trying to improve it. That's actually the worst part is when I'm trying to make the book better. And I'm like, I think I'm making it worse. But it's an unwillingness and stubbornness not to take a break
either. In fact, that's my biggest challenge. And it's also my biggest strength. Right. This dual edged sword with the money habit. There was a period we were against deadline, and it was clear I needed to move. And so I started, I think it was like a, on a Thursday. And I wrote, it's funny in retrospect, we talked about this and you like, this is, this is how you live every day.
AJ Harper:
Mm hmm.
Mike Michalowicz:
But I wrote 12 to 15 hours a day,
AJ Harper:
Yes.
Mike Michalowicz:
You know, so with guitar, there's these moments that happened. And I, I've experienced this. I've played, I've played the guitar since I've been a teenager. I've played it the same way since I've been a teenager until about two years ago, what they call cowboy chords. Just lots of chords. Two years ago I said, I'm gonna really focus in on this. And now I know how to solo. And I'm a, I'm a solid intermediate. Before I was a solid beginner. Now I'm a solid intermediate. And there's these, what they call flow states. And it's, it's interesting. It's where the mind no longer is actively processing at a conscious level. It becomes subconscious and flows a good word. 'cause It feels like there's water flowing through a stream. It just works. And there's no thought necessary. And the best performance comes outta that during these suffering painful sprints.
Mike Michalowicz:
Most of it for me is not flow. It's a grind. And you can hear the gears clicking and it's rethinking, but then there's moments like, hold on, I think I just wrote a thousand words over the last two hours, and they're good
AJ Harper:
Hmm. That's a good question. Before I answer it though, I just wanna say, I, I, I think the root of all the suffering hands down is expectation. So I'm afraid of, I'm expecting what are people gonna think? Or I expect from myself a certain level of experience while I write. I expect flow. I expect things to go easily. I expect the turn and phrase that I want to call forth. I want it to be right there when I need it. I expect it to be easy. I expect it to be clear. I expect people to love it. You know, I expect to be fast. I expect I'm gonna be early on my deadline. I expect everyone's gonna love it immediately. All these things. It's just, first of all, prescription for disaster. Yeah. Absolute. Guaranteed suffering. Guaranteed suffering. So I think I don't suffer as much because I don't have a lot of expectation.
AJ Harper:
Where I suffer the most is if I'm struggling and there's a deadline. And I'm, I'm worried I'm not gonna make it. That's the main struggle for me. Which is funny because even though I sometimes have trouble making deadlines, I've written so many books, I, I don't even know the count anymore. Dozens and dozens, probably over a hundred books. So it obviously works out, but I don't worry about the rest of it's so much. You know? Sometimes I do, like when we switched over to the Money Habit the thing about the money habit that was challenging for me is, well, two things. One was an expansion of the reader when we've known the reader for so long, for 16 years, writing for the same reader. Yeah. It's like, oh, I'm gonna, this is my zone. This is my thing. I know what I'm doing.
AJ Harper:
And then it really kind of mess with me. And then at the same time, the thing that I love best about writing with you is the way that we are in constant communication. And you were so jammed. Yeah. That it was, we didn't have as much time together. So then I felt nervous because the thing I was worried about, I couldn't really talk to you about that much. You know what I mean? So then I real that, that was suffering for me. But I think sometimes the suffering is unavoidable. It's not like you could be less busy. It's not like we could change who the reader was. You just kind of have to go keep muddling through, you know? Till we finally, till we finally figured, figured that out. But that slowed me down. And then that slowing me down creates, now I'm stressed.
AJ Harper:
Now I'm stressed because I'm like, I don't have this, I don't, I don't have my thing. I don't have my mojo. That's suffering for me when I feel like I'm totally disconnected from my mojo. Like I, I, I gotta get it so that I can move forward. And it's not a flow thing. It's more like, what's the vibe? What's the, what's the tone here? Like, what am I, I need that very clear idea of my reader and Exactly. And in your case, this case, your reader. So that I'm, I'm not just writing about concepts. I'm, I need to feel intimately connected to the reader. And it was such a shift that was suffering for me. And mostly, I mostly because we had been writing for the same reader for so long, and this, it is so odd because I used to shift readers all the time when I was a ghost writer. Oh, this person's reader. That person's reader. So, so, so could be a dozen a year. But I think I just got into like, I know the Mike thing. I got that.
Mike Michalowicz:
I'm gonna ask you a how to question, but I know our intention actually was to avoid that and just talk more about the feeling. So I'm gonna deliberately not ask.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. We was just supposed to talk about our feelings today. Just her feelings without fix.
Mike Michalowicz:
But I wanna ask the bigger question again, is just the overarching process from inception to shelf. Do you have stages of emotion or feelings that you could categorize?
AJ Harper:
Yeah. I mean, the initial idea is so fun. So if we're talking about you and I, when we go to retreat, what's better than retreat?
Mike Michalowicz:
It's the best.
AJ Harper:
It's the freaking best. And we just entertain ideas and we get excited and, and we know when it feels right. And we are proud of ourselves and a little full of ourselves, and we just have a best time. Yeah. It's so fun. Yeah. And it's the same for me. You know, the one of the books I'm working on right now, when I realized I had to write it, I burst into tears, joyful tears. It was involuntary, just tears streaming down my face. And I think it was peeling potatoes for Thanksgiving at the time,
Mike Michalowicz:
It's funny when moments like that present themselves.
AJ Harper:
Yes. And tears just, and oh, this is a soul book. So that's an a moment of elation. The suffering comes from, oh wait, how am gonna do that? You know? 'cause I could write it in essay format. I could write it as prescriptive nonfiction. I could write it as I hybrid memoir. I, I could write it as interviews, I don't know. And you start to have all of this question. And that creates a little, I don't know if I call it suffering mostly. Like, I think tension is what I would call it. I think there's some suffering when I'm trying to get that vibe piece again. Like what's the, what's the tone of this? Till I nail that? I feel, I feel frustrated. I feel I'm all, my, my biggest troll is the one that tells me I'm flat. There's no juice here.
AJ Harper:
There's no nothing flat. If I can get past that, then I'm not suffering anymore. And I don't really suffer after that. I'll be honest. I am, I accept the fact that it's a creative process and I don't know how it's gonna shake out. And I'm good with that. And I think that's where most suffering is. Not being good with that. Not trusting that eventually it will turn into something. And that's why it's hard when you're a new writer. But if you're someone who's written a lot of things, and you've seen a lot of things go from the spark of an idea to a completed project, you know, you're gonna end up there. You just don't know all the twists and turns. But you're cool with it. And I think if you can be cool with it, then it's less suffering.
Mike Michalowicz:
So for me, the journey, it almost, there's, there's elements that's, I don't know, the, the peaks and valleys happened very quickly on the same day, in the same moment. I may be exhausted and frustrated and then elated and thrilled. There's a breakthrough concept. I'm like, that's it. And then minute later, I'm like, that's stupid. So there's all these kind of conflicting emotions and feelings. I think the overarching theme for me, it's, it's kinda like a grind. It's like, okay, we're at the gym now, start the exercises and it's gonna be painful, but the gain happens through the pain. But I'll tell you the, the most interesting emotion, 'cause it's almost a non emotion, it's flat, is when a book launches, it isn't like hakuna matata and, or, you know, the Lion King's been announced. It's just like, it's anti-climatic for me.
AJ Harper:
Really? Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
It's, it's after the launch, I look back like, Hey, I'm really proud of what we've done with the pumpkin plan. I'm proud of the toilet paper entrepreneur. But when it came out, it's like meh.
AJ Harper:
That's interesting.
Mike Michalowicz:
I would say there's, there's actually, I know the exact moment, and I could say it lasts for about three to five seconds of like, alright. And what it is, is my drive. I've sorted with electronic files, and there is a directory that says publish books. There's a directory that says non or not, or to be published books or future books. And there's one that says in Progress when we start one that says in progress. So the money habit right now, right now, it says, in Progress on launch day, I drag that folder from In Progress to published. And I'm like, yeah. And that lasts for about three seconds. And I'm like, meh.
AJ Harper:
That's so funny. You don't think of it as done. I think of it as done.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh. I don't think of it as done until it's in someone's hand. You know, it's an old sales experience where I observed in salespeople. 'cause I started off my very first job, actually. I was a programmer for a little bit, but then I became a salesperson. I know salespeople would consider the handshake, the sale, and they'd come running back to the office, Hey, its sale today. And the boss would say, oh, that's fantastic. Show me the order. Like, well, no, they just said they'd buy it. Oh, show, show me the check. No check. And—
AJ Harper:
Oh,
Mike Michalowicz:
Shocking how many times the check would never come. The order would never be signed. And like, I'm never gonna be that salesperson to me. I'm not gonna celebrate that I got a handshake. I'm not gonna celebrate that a contract was signed when the check gets deposited. We made the
sale. And maybe that, wow, that emotion or that management is the, the book is not published until the day it's published. And it, and I may maybe not, maybe I know that's it.
AJ Harper:
Wow. 'cause see, I, when I turn in the last corrections for past pages, yeah. Done. It's out to me. It's, I, you know, the production team's off doing their thing. I have nothing enough to do. And I realize you're, they're still marketing to do. But to me, that's the act of creation is… It's complete.
Mike Michalowicz:
Interesting. Yeah. I, I wonder if that affects the way I perceive the book. Maybe that makes it anti-climatic. Or maybe it makes it be, I don't know. I don't know. You
AJ Harper:
Know what you need to do? You need to take a a page from my book. When I talk to my authors, I say, you need to celebrate all the milestones. So I celebrate. I was pretty excited when I turned in the very last correction on pass pages, announced it to my whole community was really psyched about it. And I let it be a moment, you know, you might need to celebrate some of the milestones along the way instead of just the one at the end.
Mike Michalowicz:
There's a book from Dan Sullivan called The Gap in the Gain. And effectively he argues that joy comes from measuring what we've gained. But most people focus on what we have yet to achieve. The gap and frustration comes from that. You know, it's one thing I've been contemplating, because I know this is the feelings episode
AJ Harper:
Not, or a notorious village,
Mike Michalowicz:
Or a notorious village
Mike Michalowicz:
And, and making decisions around that too. I I, I have a situation where I, I, it's dysfunctional a certain situation. I'm like, oh, why, why am I choosing to tolerate this? The moments are so precious, it's not serving anybody in this situation, you know, take action on it. And it just, that realizations become like, oh, that's, that's super helpful. Yeah. So the the moments are, are more precious. And maybe it's in reflection of the suffering for me. Like that's that painful sprint. I look back on that with, with a degree of, of appreciation and joy
AJ Harper:
Yeah. I mean, just like an athlete, you know, if I have a long writing day and I feel strung out at the end of it, and my brain needs to be quiet, and I don't think I have anything left to give, and I drank too much coffee. I mean, that's awesome.
Mike Michalowicz:
My gosh.
AJ Harper:
I don't even, I don't even think I would try now, but oh my gosh, I remember doing it. My, I remember doing it and it's like, I am on fire, you know? And I love, I loved some of that suffering, actually, actually liked it. But I think most of the suffering, like I said earlier, is tied to what we worry about. What other people are gonna think, or if we aren't going to meet some sort of expectation we've set for ourselves or that someone has set for us. And I am, I'm free from that most of the time just because I know I'm gonna keep creating things. So when I say goodbye to one of your books, I'm on, I'm on to the next. And it was a good day for me because I'm proud of it. But then also I know that now I can work on some of my own stuff.
AJ Harper:
And I hope people love The Money Habit. I think that a lot of people will love The Money Habit. I think it will be, they'll be changed by it. Yeah. But, you know, I don't remember to go look at reviews. I don't get caught up in any of that stuff. I might occasionally go and say, Hey, what are people saying? But it's once in a blue moon. And I think all there's unwarranted suffering. There's unnecessary suffering when we're worried about all this stuff. Because it's ultimately the act of creation is not about that. It's not about how it's received.
Mike Michalowicz:
It's attributed to Seth Godin. At least that's how I heard it. He was asked to interview, do you read your book reviews? And he said, no. And then he said, well, why? He said, it's 'cause I'm never gonna write that book again.
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
Which is, it's a true, yeah. It's, it's, it's the absolute truth. One thing I admire about him specifically was, I don't know if he still does it, but I followed his blog for a long time. And sometimes there were these long posts, often they were very short posts. But it wasn't SEO friendly, they weren't keyword optimized, they weren't any of that stuff. And what I observed is he was just true to what he wanted to put out there on a daily basis, irrespective of the expectations or the mach machinery put around him and just saying, you know, either it's gonna accept it or not. And it, it sure did. And I wonder for us, if that's what the journey's about. It's just, there's gonna be all these emotional swings, but it's about the journey itself. You know,
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
My wife and I went to the wedding of our neighbors, or former neighbors, the ties. And their youngest son got married. It was a beautiful wedding at Reno Renat which is a vineyard in New Jersey. It's the second oldest vineyard in the United States, which is shocked me. It's in New Jersey. In Jersey. New Jersey.
AJ Harper:
Well, it is the garden state.
Mike Michalowicz:
It's, it is gorgeous. It's in the, kinda the beach area, central south jersey Renat, I think is what, what, how it's pronounced. My wife and I danced up a storm in reflection. I was like, oh, I hated, now I'm doing air quotes. I hated dancing. Well, the reality was, I didn't hate dancing. I was fearful of the judgment around how bad of a dancer I was. I was fearful of the expectations that I set for myself and how I'm gonna flub 'em up, or what other people would think and talk about. And so the solution was don't dance, you know, and be that guy that sits on the side and arms crossed looking. And I behave that way. For the longest time. My cousin Julie, she got married, and this goes back like 30 years ago. And I just said to myself, no one's gonna remember.
Mike Michalowicz:
No one cares be in the moment. Just go out there in, just dance like a, a fiend. Well, the mu wedding, my wife and I they had like a, a videographer there. They were locked in on us. 'cause We just danced and danced and danced and danced. And I looked at all, it's particularly guys that do this. I looked all over and there's all these, like husbands or boyfriends sitting there with their arms crossed and not participating. And maybe doing the waddle back and forth a little bit. And I slide out there. I think no one really noticed, or no one cares. There, there, there's no storytelling. And if there is, it goes into the ether who, who freaking cares. But the experience, for me, that was a great wedding because of how we participated in it.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. And I'm sure your wife was thrilled, and probably what people saw was two people who love each other having the best time. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. And, and, and, and this is who we are now. It wasn't just this wedding. This is who we are. And she's like, this is us. Like, we bring the party. And I think it's with the book, like, bring the party,
AJ Harper:
Bring the party, just do it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Do it. And, and when you start dancing and you just let it out there, we, when you dance without caring maybe no one notices. But does that even matter? And then if someone notices you get the videographer just filming you the entire night. I don't know. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
You know, I think there's also something to, if you're a career author or not, says, well, when there's a lot at stake, you say, I'm gonna write this one book. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
That's, there's a lot at stake there. So I'm always thinking about the next thing I wanna work on. Yeah. And I think that, I think that it's harder if you are putting all your eggs in this one basket. I need this book. This book needs to be amazing. This book has to be the one, this book has to be the one that changes everything for my readers or for me, or whatever. And I'm not saying you shouldn't put your all into it. You absolutely should. But I think there is a letting go process. And so I think there's joy in letting go. I think that's where I experience a lot of joy is Okay, now it's out in the world. Go forth.
Mike Michalowicz:
Before I ask you about your final thoughts on the emotional journey, I do want to invite every single individual listening right now. So I'm talking to you, listener, go to your favorite book retailer and get Write a Must read by AJ Harper. It's the foundation for navigating this emotional experience as an author. AJ, what, what are your final thoughts, if you have any
AJ Harper:
I think I put 'em on the, I mean I don't know. It's funny. Josh in his email said, when you try to, let me actually go back to it, he said unable to find the right way to say it. The torment of that. I, I am, it's so funny to me, I never think like that. And I suppose that's a little bit of my privilege as a person who's been a professional writer for a long time. But there might not, there's not one right way is that, that's what baffles me. There's not one right way. As long as people understand what you're saying, that's why that really matters. And it makes me sad actually, to hear that the word that he's using is torment. And to hear it from my authors, how tormented they are, they might not use that word, but how stuck they are, how scared they are, how nervous they are. And I, I guess I just wish, I just wish authors would see that there's always a way and it, there's no right way. There's no perfect way. It's, it can be any way. And to move on quickly, you know, I wish people did. I, and to maybe, I hope again, that you might say the suffering means I'm doing something, you know, because it's sad to me how many people don't finish because of the suffering.
Mike Michalowicz:
That was AJ Harpor, author of Write a Must Read. She's got two additional books coming out that no one knows what the hell they're about
AJ Harper:
Yeah, we got all, we got all of it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Got all of it. One last thing I wanna share is this, you know this. Please don't write that book. Write the greatest book you can.