In this episode, AJ and Mike answer one of the most common questions they get from first-time authors. How the heck are you supposed to get an endorsement for your book? How do you ask a Big Name someone for a shout-out? This week our duo not only tells you the dos, they give you the absolutely do nots so authors can ask the Big Ask in a way that feels good. They’ll even cover how to follow up on a “no” and why it’s not always a closed door.
In this episode, AJ and Mike answer one of the most common questions they get from first-time authors. How the heck are you supposed to get an endorsement for your book? How do you ask a Big Name someone for a shout-out? This week our duo not only tells you the dos, they give you the absolutely do nots so authors can ask the Big Ask in a way that feels good. They’ll even cover how to follow up on a “no” and why it’s not always a closed door.
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The Coaching Habit, Michael Bungay Stanier
Scale Solo, Pia Silva
Rich Relationships, Selena Soo
Before the Bestseller, Alex Strathdee
The Subtle Art of not Giving a F*ck, Mark Manson
Running with Lions, Julian Winters
AJ Harper, website
AJ’s Socials:
Mike Michalowicz, website
Mike’s Socials:
Episode 124: “Influencers: How to Ask Other Authors to Support Your Book”
Mike Michalowicz:
Welcome back to the Don't Write That Book podcast where you can learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship. Follow along with us as we give you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts. Myself, Mike Michalowicz and AJ Harper.
Mike Michalowicz:
I got something badass to show you
AJ Harper:
That.
Mike Michalowicz:
Check this out screen.
AJ Harper:
Oh,
Mike Michalowicz:
So this is from, you can't see me really, but this is from Page Two. It is The Money Habit Book. Framed. I didn't know you could do that. I just got this today. ,
AJ Harper:
Oh that's nice.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. I've never received a framed book before
AJ Harper:
Me either. Oh, it looks beautiful.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. So there's a beautiful note here from Trena, Jess, and the team says, it's a privilege working with you. Thank you for being such a stellar partner to us along the way. Uh, congratulations on a successful launch. Nice. Um, isn't that cool? You just don't get that from publishers. And they even have a book on the front of the card saying, you did it.
AJ Harper:
You did it.
Mike Michalowicz:
They're, they are a class act.
AJ Harper:
They're a class act.
Mike Michalowicz:
They are a class act. So, uh, today we're gonna talk about how others, authors support each other, but last episode, I was re reneg in first acknowledging we, we went right into it. I didn't even acknowledge what the show's about and who I'm with here. So you're listening to Don't Write That Book, the best show on books ever,
AJ Harper:
Um, well, so that is a no, but that's actually a, a, a promise title. It's not really a solution title, although, I guess you could argue that setting that goal, setting that intention does, is what you need to be doing. But yeah, it's, um, it's really more of a promise title.
Mike Michalowicz:
What I admire about you, AJ, I saw it last night, is you give your community space. I, I know a lot of people who are in a position of authority and are good people. They're gurus, you know, they, they know their subject, but they espouse it exclusively. They don't, they don't engage with it, with their audience, not, you have a different level of learning that experienced in that people can be show up themselves as themselves for themselves, learn through sharing, um, as a rare gift. I, I don't see that often, so
AJ Harper:
Thank you for saying that. It's funny you say that because last week I was in live edit and, um, so, and for my Author Collective is these are all alums of my workshop. So, um, on Thursdays, every Thursday from five to six 30, we have live edit. And, um, so I'll do four whatever comes up for four people. So they submit, could be a chapter, could be a, um, but set of fundamentals they wanna run down with me. Could be an outline, could be part of a speech, just kind of depends. Um, mostly it's chapters. So there's four people. There's me and then there's my team. But there will be 20 people there. And so they're not even up that day, but they're there. They come every Thursday or almost every Thursday to listen and support. And I've created this very specific feedback process, which is all positive-based. Um, but it was so cool because last Thursday I heard so much of what I say, but they were saying it,
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, that's cool.
AJ Harper:
Support the other people in their own way, remember this, and, you know, um, and offering their perspectives. And I think that builds community. I don't think being a guru builds community.
Mike Michalowicz:
I a hundred percent agree. I a hundred percent agree. We got an email or a text. I got a text from Michael Bungay Stanier I wanted to read. It doesn't really speak to this episode a hundred percent, but it does give us credibility.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh no, I said, I did a TEDx. She goes, I did a TEDx and it took off, uh, 25 million views. I'm like, wow. I said, what do you attribute that to? Was the subject that good? She goes, no, it, no. She goes, this is simply the title. I said, what do you mean? She goes, I gave another TEDx a year prior, exactly the same. She goes almost word for word, but the title changed. That one has a hundred thousand views. This got 25 million views. It's the exact same content. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. So Michael's question about what makes a book successful, whatnot. It's really hard to diagnose. And Michael himself, I remember sitting down with him, uh, years back and, uh, the Coaching habit has been so successful. I said, what makes a book successful? And he goes, hell, if I know, um, which is the truth, which is the truth in hindsight, you know, we look at Profit First and we can say, oh, it's clear why Profit First is so successful. We didn't know going in. And every book we've done together, aj, I I swear like this is, this is the one. This is it. We nailed it. We nailed it with All In. We've never written a book that good. And I'm like, why? But
AJ Harper:
You. But, but I do think that launch that All In launch, I mean, the topic, you know, we, um, the, the topic of the launch and what he mentioned, what's different. You didn't do bowl sales. There was a lot of stuff that, you know, you did on this one that I think you pro would've changed the launch for All in had you done them. Um, so, you know, I think there's definitely comparisons to be had.
Mike Michalowicz:
There's, there is, there is. And we'll, we'll explore that. But of all the launches we've had with the books, um, Toilet Paper Entrepreneur was the slow, the lowest. But Profit First was lower than all In, it was lower than Fix This next. It was lower than get different. All those books launched stronger meaning more sales. Um, so in the beginning. In the beginning. And then Profit First though is the engine that's just like, bring it, bring it, bring it.
AJ Harper:
But today we're talking about influencers, but specifically how to make the ask. That's a question that we get a lot.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Do you must get this often. And, um, I'm just curious about that. Do, do you get asked as an author a lot to support other authors and what do, what do you mean by support too? Is it marketing support? Is it some other form of support?
AJ Harper:
Well, yes I do, but it's more in the, I mean, so, uh, it's a little tricky. So it might be, do you wanna, you know, I've, I've definitely had people reach out, do you wanna do the bulk buy? You know, can I support in that way? Um, I've had people ask if they can be on this podcast. I've had people, uh, which we don't have guests by the way, so don't, no. Um, I've had people ask for endorsements, of course. Um, and I have asked for some support in terms of spreading the word, or they didn't, not, the thing is, they don't say anything specific. They just say, well, you helped spread the word. Well, you know, like, I don't know what you mean by that. So I'm perhaps probably gonna be No, um, a lot of times though, I'll reach out to authors and say, how can I support you when I know that they have a book launch coming up? Um, so sometimes, uh, like I'll be a, I'm going to someone's big book launch party in a, uh, I think it's Monday, P Silva, um,
Mike Michalowicz:
P Oh, Pia Silva.
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
She's launching a new book.
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Well, lemme tell you something, Pia Silva. So, okay. This is, wow. This is Meant
AJ Harper:
To Be. And I did, I didn't endorse, I endorsed her book.
Mike Michalowicz:
Wow. I don't think she, um, she asked me to, or, or she did. I didn't see it. I wanna show you something. I got, I here in my office, when I launched Profit First, this was gifted to me from Pia Silva.
AJ Harper:
Oh, really?
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, she may, she. So if for our folks that aren't, um, on the video, this is a dollar that she wrote The words Profit First on, I can see here a little better. And my, and just painted on it. So it's, it's, and, and, uh, George Washington is wearing sunglasses too, if you look real close. And, uh, it doesn't say from Pia Silva, it doesn't say anything like this. She gifted it to me, which is brilliant. She gave this to me, I wanna say 10 or 15 years ago, and I still remember her. It's the power of gifting without expectation. It was a genuine gift. And it's forever remembered. It's funny that, you know, running in parallel now, I have this book, uh, I be really careful with this from page two, uh, framed. I'll never forget, this is from Page Two. There's no logo. It doesn't say, this is the Page Two gift. That's a setup. I, I Pia is forever in my favor because of this gift. And I would, I would if she asked, Hey, could you support me in some capacity? Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's just kind of Interesting.
AJ Harper:
I'm gonna text her and tell her you said that. So she, she has a new book out called Scale Solo
Mike Michalowicz:
Scale solo. Oh, Cool.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. And it's a great book. And I know her from a community that we are both in. And, um, we sat next together and just became friendly. And I just think a lot of her, I think she's so smart. Her writing's so efficient and on point and, um, super useful. Which, you know, me, I'm a sucker for that. Is a book useful. That's what I, if it's prescriptive nonfiction, can I use this? Can I implement? Is it gonna shift my thinking and scale solo, I think does that. So I endorsed it. Um, and yeah, she's got a party, so I'm gonna had there, so there's all kinds of asks, but her ask was, um, she sent it over email, but also we communicate via text. And so, um, but we had, we had, we're already friendly and admirers of each other, so it was a warm ask. Right? So she's not coming in cold on that. Uh, but when I get a cold ask, that's a whole 'nother thing. And most people get that completely wrong. So that's what we're talking about today.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. And need context while we're talking about this is was last episode, we went to the overview of the launch of The Money Habit, kinda the breakdown of what happened, what worked, uh, what worked really well, what didn't work as well. And then if you go back to episode 114, we have a behind the scenes peak at the creation of the money habit. But this is really, I think, the most integral part of any book launch and ongoing marketing sales is your alliances with other authors where there's this exchange of support for each other. I, and I've said this on other episodes, aj, but I, I think it, it's worth saying again, this is the only industry I've been in in my life, and you have context. I've been in the tech industry. I've owned a manufacture, been a co or in a manufacturing business.
Mike Michalowicz:
I've, I'm an investor in about 15 different companies right now actively. And, um, everything from lighting to home inspections to a, a fitness studio in Alaska outside of Anchorage. And, uh, this is the only industry that if your competitor is more successful than you, it helps you
AJ Harper:
Yes. So we're gonna talk about the ask because if I'm, you know, if I, I probably, I beat this drum about asking for support and building relationships is so hard with my students. But then when it comes to asking, that's where they just freeze up. And they're, they're so nervous about, how do I go about it? What's appropriate? And so I think, I would bet most of them just don't do it. And
I'm always saying, you are gonna, no bad thing will happen, right? So you're not gonna die. And the worst thing that could happen is people say no or they ignore you. I guess maybe there is a worst thing. The worst thing would be they, you get, they annoy you an
Mike Michalowicz:
That Yeah. There, there is that you will get blackballed.
AJ Harper:
And so that's, so I should probably amend that. And, but you know, the reason I say you won't die, nothing bad will happen is just to get them to do it. But, um, this episode hopefully will help them feel more confident in doing it by avoiding some no-nos.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, there is was a, um, individual who was so inappropriately persistent that they're forever blackballed. The name kind of reverberates in the hallways here. Like, oh, if you ever hear from this person, deny, decline, reject, don't speak to, and notify other authors too, saying, watch out for this person. Um, and I don't even think they have bad intent, but it was so aggressive. It was so one-sided and, and almost like, I, I don't know. But, but you will get blackballed. Um, and there are certain names, and there are some established authors who don't buy into this concept of, if we all step up, we all benefit. If we all, you know, this tide rise and so do boats. There are certain authors that said, no, I, I I am the only boat in the sea. It's all about me. And those names circulate, and they, they are excluded from these communities. Avoid those.
AJ Harper:
So, uh, you don't have to name the person, obviously you can't. But, um,
Mike Michalowicz:
Her name is AJ Harper, by the way.
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, the first experience I had with this person, he said, we're his opening line. We're gonna co author a book together.
AJ Harper:
Oh no.
Mike Michalowicz:
I'm like, I'm like, I'm sorry, what, what's your name?
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
But what he did was he said, I'm gonna take the value that you've created for your audience and benefit from it exclusively. I'm like, what? And he goes, well, I have all this knowledge, all these great things. And, um, you'll, you'll benefit by having your name associated with this. I just want, I just want your audience. Not those exact words, but that position. I'm like, I'll protect my audience there, figuratively with my life. Like I, my, my, my community. That that's, that is my career. So no efffing way are you getting near my community that I've built a rapport with and, and served. But that's all he wanted. And I'm like, what? You know, what's this magical thing you have? And I said, and I even told him, I said, don't, don't tell me. I'm just asking what's this magical thing? 'cause if it's this magical go on your own man, go on your own.
AJ Harper:
But what was aggressive? Like, how often did he pursue you with it? Keep, um,
Mike Michalowicz:
About three or four times over a short period. And then kind of said, well, you're a, to me, a judging phrase for not engaging with him. Like, like a big Eff you.
AJ Harper:
That's funny. Meaning you don't wanna repeat it 'cause it's, it's inappropriate.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Basically an eff you
AJ Harper:
Really?
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. And I'm like, oh
AJ Harper:
Wow.
Mike Michalowicz:
Now this, that one went down 10 years ago, um, and still know the person's name. And they've never, nothing's ever come out of this magical stuff they've had. Like,
AJ Harper:
So no book.
Mike Michalowicz:
No book, no book. Not maybe, I don't know. I don't know. Um, there's another one, uh, another person that, um, has done some books. I got a call from the, someone else in, in the authorship industry, a very close friend and said, Hey, um, I just had a run in with x, y, Z person. Um, we're getting real creep vibes. Can, can you give us a heads up on this? And I said, yep. Here's what I experience with them. Avoid at all costs. Listen, it's just like any other relationship. Like, you know, you get some weirdo in your neighborhood, um, the neighborhood watch is on, like people are "watch out for so and so." We have our neighborhood in the author space. But I do want to define influencers 'cause it doesn't necessarily mean only other authors. So I'm curious how your, you define what an influencer is or who it is.
AJ Harper:
So I would say a person who has influence over your readership in some way, meaning your readers admire them or listen to them or read them or follow them or respect them. Um, and so, and, and, and that person would have some sort of access to your readers. So it could be just about anybody, but it's, it's gonna be different for each book.
Mike Michalowicz:
I gotta hack for you AJ. And we do this with our Profit First Professionals community. It's not for authors, but it surely works and it translates. So if someone's pursuing a community and it's, it's best explained with a business vertical, but it can work in any area of interest. If you say, I'm pursuing roofers, I I wanna provide services to roofers, what you do is spend a few hours or now minutes on the internet and say, where are the major roofing, roofing conferences that are happening? Um, then you go to these websites and you see who are the people speaking at these events. Those are influencers. They may be authors, but they're, they're influencers 'cause they're the speakers. Next is you go to the event and we call the outer circle, go to the vendor booths and walk around the outer circle. The reason the outer circle, uh, is because those are the less expensive booths.
Mike Michalowicz:
That's usually the owner of that business there. The inner circle where you walk in, it's the big grand booths. Those are usually salespeople for large corporations. But you walk in the outer circle, all those people are influencers. They're vendors back to this community. So there's certain gathering points. And that's just one example. As an author, we need to identify who, who the influencers are. And I think you can do similar research on the internet, but you're gonna find these certain congregation points, I call 'em conferences or newsletters, everyone reads or podcasts. Everyone listens to them. And, and start seeing whose reference in there. You'll start seeing, once you find where the community gathers, you'll see the same names circulating. And that's your influencer pot.
AJ Harper:
Yeah, absolutely.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, do, do you go, like, does size matter, meaning like an influencer has a community of a million followers versus someone who has five followers? I mean, well,
AJ Harper:
Five, five in a million. Yeah. Obviously. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz:
So the-there is, there is somewhere there's a threshold.
AJ Harper:
I think so for sure where it has just to be worth your time. Um, but I don't, I think we automatically, you know, uh, everyone, everyone else asks me, well what, what if I have Brene Brown on my list? Well, okay, do you know someone who knows her? How are you supporting her? Like, you know, same rules apply. You can still try and reach out to Brene Brown. It's not like you can't try. But there, but there's a whole bunch of other people who are also serving her same reader, that are more accessible to you. And, um, they could be experts or other people that care about the same things that you and Brene care about and wanna serve people. So, um, I think we have to expand, uh, our view of it. And you could have a person who has a thousand people on a list. Um, you know, I have a small email list by the way
Mike Michalowicz:
Part, say it one more time.
AJ Harper:
I have a very small email list. It's extremely engaged.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. That that, okay. That's the variable that matters.
AJ Harper:
I've had, I've done promo for people where they've said, holy crap. Yeah. And I have a small list, but my people will move stuff.
Mike Michalowicz:
So that's why I asked that five to 1 million. 'cause I was setting you up for a trick question and you deftly avoided it.
AJ Harper:
I avoided the trick.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Because I'd say you, you can't tell five or a millions better. We assume larger more is better, but it's the engagement that matters the most. And so what what that engaged list of five people were the five most influential people. Like what if you had a list of five people, but it was say, Brene Brown, Malcolm Gladwell, whatever. It's true. And they listen to everything you said. And, and talk about that becomes a massively important list. I I think there is a number, and I find it's communities of between 500 to me, 10,000 on a list. Those actually seem to be a sweet spot where there's super could be super engaged with that, uh, influencer. And that person can yield a lot more. The, the person with a million, um, they, they have so many things going on, likely or so many communications going out.
Mike Michalowicz:
They, they actually could drown out, uh, the, well the consumer of that stuff may not be listing in 'cause it's so much, but someone that's much more narrowly focused, they may be on top of it like a Yeah. Agree. Like a white on rice. Okay. So size matters to some degree, engagement matters more. You are saying there's connection that matters. Yeah. Um, how far you're separated. And we're saying they, the influencers are people in the community, um, that have reputation and recognition in that community. And lastly, I think the last thing that defines an influencer is if that person can move books. Meaning if they say, do this, and the group says, absolutely. Because in the past I've done what you said and it served me. Get this book. I'm gonna get it. 'cause you said that that's important.
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
So now with that defined, let's get into how to go about the ask.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. I think I, what we wanna hear is how you do it, Mike, but also let's, let's do both as you go. Okay. What's good, what's not good. Let's do the, this is the way to do it. Please don't do it this way.
Mike Michalowicz:
So let me pull up, uh, Amy last night, so I talked to Amy Marin yesterday. Uh, Amy Memo, RIN uh, she's a psychotherapist. Her book, here's 13 things, uh, that mentally strong people don't Do is one of her books. And she, she's a psychotherapist. I I have never met her before. Um, and yesterday was my first interface with her. I'll tell you, the number one thing to do to build a relationship with someone new is to just be curious about the person as a human, as a person.
AJ Harper:
Yes. Yes.
Mike Michalowicz:
Like, that's the most golden rule. It's not, but now
AJ Harper:
You're talking about a cold desk.
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, yeah. Or lukewarm in this case. But I, I think anybody, the, the first time you connect with anyone an influencer, just be super curious about that person as a person. So our conversation's like, oh, where are you from? I originally from Maine, she moved down to the Florida Keys. Her husband had a dream of living on a boat, and it wasn't her dream, but now it's become a dream. They've been doing it for 10 years. And it's just, it's a fascinating story. Um, another thing, and this is just in any relationship, is what are the common connection points? It, it's, it should be natural for most people, but what are things that this person has that you can associate with? So, um, while I've never, uh, lived on a boat, I've been on a boat, I know there's catamarans sailboats, there's powerboats. So I'm like, oh, what kind of boat do you have?
Mike Michalowicz:
And she's like, oh, it's a sailboat. And I goes, A catamarans. She says, no, no. She goes, it's a 50 foot. But it starts building this dialogue of true intrigue and interest, because I'm just referencing things that I know and I'm super curious about learning. It's interesting when it comes to the, the action component, like the ask or the tell or the offer. We, we spoke for maybe 20 minutes, 25 minutes. It's, it's really could have been done in 30 seconds. That call could have been in 30 seconds. Hey Amy, I'm an author too. Um, I would like for you to offer you this because I think you'll gain value and then we'll connect from the future. And then maybe I can ask you something. Like, that's basically the structure of the, the business side of that conversation. But the rest of it was rapport building.
Mike Michalowicz:
What I look for is, do I vibe with this person and are they vibing with me? Now, I can't determine that, but if I don't feel the vibe and there's influencers, I just like, hmm. Especially that there's like the Broadway brands, it drives me nuts. Um, like, oh, look at, look at how great I am. And if you emulate me, you can be as great as me. Kinda that broey in your face brand. Just don't resonate with it. And I, and I've connected with some of those people and I'm like, Hmm. Just getting the ick factor. And even though they could be extraordinarily influential for their communities, I know even if I build a rapport with them, their community resonates with that. And that's not who I am. So they're not gonna resonate with me. So it's gonna be a loss for everybody. So is there a vibe factor? And Amy Morin was like, oh yeah, she's awesome. And, and just
AJ Harper:
So lemme be clear, did she reach out to you or did you reach out to her?
Mike Michalowicz:
She was introduced to me by, by Alex, Alex who reads books.
AJ Harper:
Oh, yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Alex Weicowski. Alex Reads Books is the So
AJ Harper:
Let's, let's talk about this though. So that's a person who referred, that person was referred to you. Yeah. So a warm introduction can happen from someone else facilitating the referral. And then you're gonna pay attention because you have a good rapport with Alex. You're gonna say, oh, let me see what, you know, Alex thinks this person is cool. You're gonna at least give it a few seconds that you're, of consideration.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yes. And there's something that precedes that. I have a list of things, not a formal list, just a of things I can offer to help other authors. And I think we all need to do this. Like, what are the things you could do to support an influencer? You could post reviews of their books, uh, you could perhaps gain access to your network. Maybe, you know, great stories they could benefit from. I'm thinking, you know, author, whatever. Um, you could offer them connections to other authors we're all things, well, one of the things I have is that author meetup. Um, and it has such notoriety now that people are wanting to get in. Um, interestingly, I don't necessarily want people who want to get in because I think the motivation is about what they can gain. I want people to join who want to contribute. So Alex, you know, him just this wonderful young guy, and he just knows people who are vibing the right way and want to, uh, learn and contribute.
Mike Michalowicz:
And he's like, oh, I know this one author Amy Morin, and, uh, that's exactly who she is. You guys should connect. So I talked to her, she knew, she knew of, but very little about this group. And she said, when Alex told me about this, I went on, uh, the list, or there was a private page we had. She goes, oh my God, I know like 70% of the people in that room, I, I could learn so much from them. And I, and I, I have some of my things I can share. And so it became a, a a no brainer for the introduction. So the, the point here is what are the things you can offer this influencer, uh, and, and have that mentally lined up? I, I think the thing not to do is to do that ask or demand of someone just like that jerky jerks. Like, ah, we're gonna co-author a book together. Like, go in with how you can be of service.
AJ Harper:
You didn't know that person.
Mike Michalowicz:
What?
AJ Harper:
You didn't know the person who was cringey like that?
Mike Michalowicz:
No.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Okay. So let's stay with the wore masks. I wanna try and keep these in buckets so that people can track. Okay. So if it's, if you get a referral from somebody, or you at least know someone somewhat. So earlier we were talking about P Silva and, um, she knows me. We, we were at an event together, we talked for a while, we shared information, we stayed in touch. Um, so that's, she knows me. She's not coming in cold asking me to look, to look at anything or to do.
Mike Michalowicz:
And how I met Pia was also through a warm introduction. I don't remember who the person was, but I had something to offer. And they just being an introduction, like sometimes it happens like, Hey, you two should know each other, but those are kind of weird calls I've done that. It's like, Hey, what do you do? I like have some intentionality. So I'll put out to the community to get warm introductions. I was on M-S-N-B-C, I was, um, a regular guest on the show, and I actually did like a little, um, segment for them, a business rescue segment. And, uh, I just put out to my network, I said, Hey, listen, if anyone ever wants to attend MSNBC's Rockefeller Center and Tour Saturday Night Live, um, I record out there every so often, I can bring in up to two guests. And, uh, someone said, oh, I, I was talking to my friend Pete, and she always wanted to be on that show. She'd love to run shotgun with you. And that's how she was introduced. So I put offers out there to my general network to get warm introductions. And I, I didn't even put parameters around too saying, Hey, if you know an author, an aspiring author, an established author who's looking just to check out what's going on at M-S-N-B-C, I might be able to hook them up, uh, make introductions. You know, you wanna instigate that in my opinion.
AJ Harper:
But once you have that rapport, so now you have what a warm ask, meaning do you know the person in some capacity or you are referred to the person through somebody who knows them. So then how do you go about that? Ask is where we are with this hot because today we wanna, you know, break down. So when you, when you were doing for the money habit. Yeah. When
you know people and it's warm or very close to you, what does your ask look like? Are you gonna ask them to help you?
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, I asked something that is s small. Um, even though I may have a large desire, I'll often start off small as one option. Like, so I'll say like, I want someone to ideally email. I, I would love for Pia, we'll pick on Pia Pia to, she's listening in. She's like, oh my God, she's for Pia to promote my book. One ask. I could just reach out to her and say, Hey, would you please email
your entire list about my book? That's an ask. Um, but a small ask is, Pia, I'm, I have a new book launch coming out. I would love to get your support in a way that also supports you. Do you have some ideas? Uh, anything from social media promotion to something else? So a smaller ask that's usually more effective. I think the biggest thing is I go in and give people the easy out.
Mike Michalowicz:
The easy no. So I, I will often reach out a, a text message, a voice. I like to do it by voice. I think it's, you can feel someone's genuineness or lack thereof in voice.
AJ Harper:
Okay.
Mike Michalowicz:
So I'll either call them or I'll voice text and say, Hey, uh, I'm a big coming and a big no is expected. Uh, or, okay, I have no expectation whatsoever. I'm trying to promote a book. If it fits within your schedule, would you be willing to consider a promotion that no expectation and, and telling them a no is a-okay. I get, I would say nearly a hundred percent response from people, uh, not saying I'll do it, but people engage and say, oh, sorry, I gotta pass on this one. And they're like, oh dude, you're such a rock star. Anyway, thanks for getting back to me knowing that I've set myself up for our future.
Mike Michalowicz:
Ask now too mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
I, I like that you start with this as a big ask because you're, you're not doing a song and dance. It's not like, let me talk to you about some
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh yeah.
AJ Harper:
Junk for 30 seconds, which we all know you're about to ask me something. So you're just leading with this big ask, you know, who it has a really good system for this and how you do all of this stuff. I was just reminded of Selena Sue's book Rich Relationships, and she has a breakdown on how she does the ask. And I've been on the receiving end of an ask from her. Yeah. Um, and the way she lays it out is so compelling, and she does give an out and, but she's also explaining what is the purpose, what is the goal behind the ask? A very, very specific goal. I'm trying to get this done by this time, and this is what I'm hoping you can do for me if that
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. She's masterful.
AJ Harper:
She's masterful. And she breaks all down in that book Rich Relationships, FYI, everyone,
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, get, get that book. She, um, invited me to a networking dinner and what a great way. That was a cold outreach, I think to me. I didn't know anyone in the group nor
AJ Harper:
It's a long time ago. Right?
Mike Michalowicz:
Long time ago. Yeah. And she was doing it with a colleague and, uh, she or her colleague Chris, reached out to me and said, Hey, we'd love for you to come to this dinner. And did, and they absorbed the cost like it was a show up in network.
AJ Harper:
She's still does that.
Mike Michalowicz:
What's so interesting is it builds this, this inventory, and I think this is how we're wired of, right? Is it is how reciprocity works, is there's this inventory of, oh, look, who, what did for me? Look, p gave me a great gift, you know, 10, 15 years ago now, I guess what, 10 years ago. I'll never forget it. It, it, it's an inventory. So when Selena did that, I was like, oh, then I, the other beautiful thing of her thing was where you had this dinner together, is you get to learn who they are and just get a sense for their genuineness. And when it was a goodbye, it was goodbye. There was no like, Hey, make sure you do this. There was no, um, ask on the moment, but over time, just a rapport built and then asks become fluid. Yeah. I think that's the biggest component is you can ask when there's rapport asking prior to that is very awkward and odd. But when there's dialogue, rapport and there's some history, then your position for the ask. I think people try to jump over that part.
AJ Harper:
I--they totally do and they wait too long to do it. But, you know, so I met Pia uh, um, in May of 2025, and we, you know, it's not like we're on each other's doorsteps. We're just, we met in an event. We, we vibed we sat next to each other. We stayed in contact, but not close contact. Um, but she's so cool. She's just my speed. I just love her. I just think she's just a cool person that I like to hang out with. So I'm actually going to Brooklyn to her book launch. I lemme talk to you. Okay. Brooklyn, you think that's fine. It's like 29 miles from my house. Not a problem. This is gonna take me
Mike Michalowicz:
Two weeks.
AJ Harper:
I know. It's like, I know I might as well be going to Vermont, you know?
Mike Michalowicz:
I know.
AJ Harper:
Just like, oh my God, I'm gonna go
Mike Michalowicz:
#Truth.
AJ Harper:
I'm in New York too. Like, it's 29 miles from
Mike Michalowicz:
I know you're in the same state. You're 29 miles away. You'll never make it. You better leave tomorrow
AJ Harper:
where I'm going. I had to--
Mike Michalowicz:
You better leave now. Actually,
AJ Harper:
I had to buy, I know I should leave right now. Um, but I just, you know, why am I doing it? It's not because I, I, you know, you know, meet. I'm not, I don't, I'm not there. I don't care about, um, I don't know. I'm not really a, a part of the like vanity metrics or showing. I just don't, she's just cool, you know, she's cool and I really like the book, so I'm gonna go. But mostly it's 'cause she's cool. Yeah. So you have to have that. The rapport is everything. I think you can build rapport. You mentioned some ways, ways, a big way I think people underestimate is getting people do, asking people to do an interview.
Mike Michalowicz:
So I I think that's a cool way. Yeah. I mean now you're talking about more of the cold outreach. AJ Harper:
Well, how you can start to build the rapport. ,
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh build the rapport.
AJ Harper:
A couple things that I tell students, you know, when they say I want Brene, like we talked about earlier. I say, well, what do you know about what she's doing? Do you know if she's working on a book? Yeah. Do you know if she's doing a fundraiser, what does she care about right now? Yeah. What's going on? Set up some Google alerts. Go read, go pay attention to what they're doing, what matters to them. Because every time that a even a big influencer is starting something new, they're, it's always kind of scary for them too. And they're wondering if it's gonna take off and if you can help them with whatever new thing they're doing. And it might not be a book, it could be they're trying to raise money or raise awareness. Um, so it's amazing to me how people want the influencer, but they aren't even paying attention to what they're doing.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. A hundred percent agreed. I it's funny with, uh, an example of an influencers is Jesse Cole with the Savannah Bananas. And, uh, he and I are are friends. Um, I can't tell you how many people say, Hey Mike, do me a favor,
Mike Michalowicz:
His son is a, uh, baseball player. And his dream is to be at this fan of bananas. So I said, oh, I'll tell you exactly how he gets on there, uh, to meet Jesse and so forth. Volunteer at a game to support them. Um, 'cause they have these massive shows and they get hundreds of volunteers that will put you in front of Jesse at some point 'cause he does a rah rah presentation. Um, or, or to get everyone excited before the show starts. Uh, but then just be extraordinary service to the customers. Get so engaged. Be the funnest, most craziest,
AJ Harper:
Craziest, craziest taco. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Taco guy ever. Yeah. You you, you're in, you
AJ Harper:
Win. Yeah. Get his attention by doing what they do.
Mike Michalowicz:
I wi I I I'll tell you what not to do to win influencers. Don't send me another book. We have, we're bar this office. I need to get an office just for all the books we're receiving unsolicited with... God forbid, now you open these boxes, uh, we have a person dedicated to open receiving boxes and they have these cut up. It's worse than peanuts. I'd rather you put styrofoam peanuts in there than those that like shredded crunchy poster board paper that was all shredded up. And it is all over the office. And I gotta hire someone to vacuum this stuff up. And it's all about, look at me, look at me, look at me. It's, um, I'm being a little exasperated intentionally here. Um, it's, it's telling people how great you are and, and, and, and trying to market to them to market you is the worst way to build relationships.
AJ Harper:
I, you know what I, people ask me all the time, will you read my stuff?
Mike Michalowicz:
AJ Harper:
So my job is reading people's stuff and giving them feedback. So what you're asking me to do is do my job for free. That's what you, that's you feel like I should just take a look at that. Here's my, we have a, a policy in my company, we reject any, anybody who sends me a cold, uh, a Word document or a PDF with their book. I don't open this stuff. I never look at it. Um, that now have I done stuff for people? Sure. I'm, I, I've reached out to people and offered to help them work on their fundamentals. I've, I've helped them with all titles. In fact, we're talking about Pia. I texted with her. She's like, what do you think of this title? Am I put, that's fun to me. That's cool. I always, that's fine. But if a stranger sends me and says, Hey, can you read my manuscript and gimme some initial feedback? First of all, the audacity.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah.
AJ Harper:
So don't if I'm one example. So think about if you got an influencer, are you asking them to do their job for free? Is the thing you're asking them to do?
AJ Harper:
Is that what's happening? Then don't do that. Don't do that. Ever, ever, ever. Um, I would also say that, um, the more you can be specific about why you matter, why they matter to you. Yeah. Instead of just your big deal. It that's for the better. So for, I mentioned interview and we kind of went past that, but what I do is reach out and say, Hey, you know, I'm working on something and I would love to get your perspective. You said this on this day, right? So go look at their TEDs, go look at some weirdo thing they wrote about go find something in a book that's meaningful to you that you wanna learn more about instead of all the stuff they're asked all the time. And then say, can I just get 10 to 15 minutes of your time to get your perspective on this one piece? I'm really curious. And keep it short, short, short. Then your job in that 10 to 15 minutes is to have a good rapport, but with a big influencer. Let me ask you, I'll just test you. Let's say somebody messaged you and said, Mike, I'm working on X 'cause this is what I'm trying to learn more about. Or this is my mission. Or I'm working on a book you said five years ago in a speech, blah, blah, blah. Or on page 89.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, Pumpkin Plan.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. You said this and I I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. Right. You'd be like, what? You know? 'cause no one's asking you that. They're asking you the same round of questions. Influencers go on podcasts, they go everywhere. Nobody asks them anything different. (Yeah.) Nobody ever asks 'em anything different. But if you are the one who does, and it looks like you're paying attention now you have that influencer's attention.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Agree. It, it's interesting how, um, the way we approach a person too, meaning the platform is important. I I really discourage email use, uh, because email is, so any, anyone can send an email and I, I get probably five, 10 solicitations a day via email specifically about, can you endorse, can you support some kind of book component? And they're format the same way. You're amazing. You're great. And they referenced some cheesy generic public information. They clearly aren't interested. So now the point is, even if someone writes someone that's genuine, I'm deleting it because I'm habituated to it. Well, let's, so I invite breaking that barrier.
AJ Harper:
How do you break it if you don't know? So let's,
Mike Michalowicz:
Well, you, you send a, a mail, like no one sends letters anymore. You do what, what, um, page two did you, you send something that is unique and specific to that receiver and it goes right to the top of the box. Like, listen, we had all this mail. There was I think like 10 boxes on Erin's desk. Uh, say Tuesday we had, uh, president day. It was yesterday. So on holiday. So all these boxes are there. This was right at my door. Like, oh, check out what you got. So do things that break the habituation barrier.
AJ Harper:
Okay. But hang on a minute. Let's, I wanna see, has there ever been a cold email that did get your attention?
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, yeah. When it was unique back in the day. Like someone would insert a video into it. Mm hmm
AJ Harper:
Oh yeah. He's, he's got, he wrote, wrote, um, before the bestseller is his most recent book.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. And he, he does marketing for books. He's got a, a podcast perhaps by the same name. And forgive me for not remembering.
AJ Harper:
I think so. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
But real simple. His subject line said, go Hokies and, uh,
AJ Harper:
Yes. Pay attention
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Yeah. And he, he went to Tech and he, he's really smart. That email that maybe sent to me five or six years ago, he still re we still, he still sends me emails with that email. Like, it's still the same email. It's like a hundred long now. Oh,
AJ Harper:
I think a genius that reply. Reply,
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Reply, reply, reply a hundred times. And so now, um, we, we've hired him for services. He's extraordinary way. He does thoughtful. So that, that was a unique way of doing it too. Something that, that is unexpected and different, but genuine.
AJ Harper:
And even if he didn't go to tech, he could have still gleaned from your book, if he read your book, how often you talk, you say, go Hokie. We actually, it's an Easter egg we have in all your books.
Mike Michalowicz:
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly,
AJ Harper:
Exactly. So I'm always looking like, where are we gonna put go Hokies for this one. If you read your books, you would know, and that's gonna get your attention. When I had to cold outreach Steve Pressfield, uh, years ago.
Mike Michalowicz:
How'd you do that?
AJ Harper:
I, the subject line was, no, I didn't go broke after reading your book.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, there you go.
AJ Harper:
The reason was in his, a speech he gave in Nashville, he said, um, well, no, it was in a conversation I had with him and another woman had with him. I overheard, you know, he said, I'm always worried about people who say I quit my job.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
AJ Harper:
And I'm worried they go broke. Right. And he said, it happens all the time. So I, that was a, I remembered that. And that's the thing. Are you paying attention? Is it specific to them? So we don't want generic asks. That's what we're saying here. Nothing generic that makes a person feel like a, you sent this to a hundred people, or B um, you don't know anything about me. You just are looking at my follower account. Um, so we wanna avoid those things. But that got his attention. And then the email was great.
Mike Michalowicz:
When you, um, get a no, do you or when you're giving a No, I always say, when you get a no, when you ask someone for support and they say No, what do you do, AJ?
AJ Harper:
Nothing. It just, it doesn't move on to the next.
Mike Michalowicz:
So I'm a little different. I, I respond to a person and say, I'm just so appreciative that you responded and I totally understand it's not a fit now. Uh, hope we can be in. Oh,
AJ Harper:
Okay. No, I, of course, I thought you, you meant in my mind.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, oh, Oh, oh.
AJ Harper:
Like, do you collapse? Do you eat a Ben and Jerry's? Um, no.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, Yeah, yeah. No, no.
AJ Harper:
Of course. I say thank you for your consideration. Of course. Um, yeah. Fast short, I don't ask for anything else. Um, move on. But I don't let it waylay me.
Mike Michalowicz:
So Ramit sat has declined my asks if I count them over 10 times. I asked for endorsements, I asked for promotions and stuff. And he's, he's so kind in the way he declines, but it's a, it's a Canadian decline kind of thing. It's like, I can't, or I, but he said no. Um, and during that, our
relationship got stronger and stronger. That's the key. You know, it's working when someone can say no and your relationship is stronger as a result, um, because there's comfort there. Um, so no should always be responded to with a thank you for consideration. But what about, um, that if, if
they're not hearing you, you know, like, like, like maybe send an email or something, you don't hear back. How do you know when to follow up? Just because you're invisible to them still?
AJ Harper:
I would assume if someone doesn't respond to my email that they didn't get it or they didn't see it. Mm-hmm
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, that's a great point.
AJ Harper:
If their team spots it. Um, I always tell this story about, um, when I had my publishing company, Julian Winters, um, submitted, but I didn't, no, I had, was drowning in submissions as an acquisitions editor. And the marketing person said, Hey, uh, did you see a book from Julian Winters? And I was like, I don't know. You know, I've got 20 people before this person I have to look at. And the marketing person said, no pressure. You're in charge if you wanna acquire the book. But, and then went to tell me how she had noticed all the support for all these other titles from our house, from our publishing house that Julian had put forth in a genuine way supporting all these books without being asked, Hmm. All these visuals creating all this cool stuff, all this creating content about these books. Um, and so she was like, I really hope it's a good book because this kid, right, he's not really a kid. But, um, and we acquired that book. But it did get my attention towards like, hmm, let me pay closer attention to this book. We did acquire it. We went on to publish two more books for him, which were huge success for us. He is now a New York Times best seller. In fact, he was a USA today bestseller two weeks ago, a week before you.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, that's amazing.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. And so I'm just saying like he was putting in all this genuine, it wasn't, that's the other thing I wanna say to everybody. It should not be fake. Genuine.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah.
AJ Harper:
He, he really loved the books. He was really inspired by the books. It got the marketing person's attention who then messaged me. Um, so I was paying closer attention. And that's all you really need. It could be the team that notices.
Mike Michalowicz:
When I had my forensics business, we did computer crime investigation. This is way back, this is over 20, 25 years ago now. Gosh. Uh, we had, uh, a paja position for forensic analysts. And all the resumes came in through monster.com. That was the, the big thing. And one was FedEx to us in a box. And it was a forensic analysis of the applicant themselves. They did an analysis of themselves in a forensics report. Um, I can't remember her name at the moment now. We hired her. We hired, it was, she jumped right to the front of it. And we came in for an interview. She interviewed extraordinarily well. We hired her. What's unique, what's fun? What's genuine I think works. Um, and I think professional persistence is, is good. And I think it's also to give the person the out. Some people ghost because they, they just don't know how to respond. And it's this easier in the moment not to respond. So if I pursue someone and they're not writing back, I'll say, Hey, my fear is becoming a nuisance. And my other fear is you're not seeing these, if I'm being a nuisance or whatever, um, it's okay to simply say, please stop or stop for now and I will totally, you won't hear from me again. 'cause I don't want to be that guy. And that's been very effective for me too.
AJ Harper:
I'm gonna tell you what's a big turnoff for me on a cold ask. I don't wanna hear that. You think your book's a masterpiece?
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh Yeah.
AJ Harper:
I don't want to hear any of that. I wanna hear about what you care about and I want you to explain to me why you think my, 'cause a lot of times people ask me for stuff And I think, why do you want me? Yeah. I, I think, I don't think you really need me. I don't think I'm an influencer for your reader. And this is tricky for me because I think sometimes people want my stamp of approval as if it's a good book because of who I, 'cause I am a person who helps people write good books. I write excellent must reads. Right? So is do you want it because you want us to be like, AJ thinks this book is good. That's not the kind of, that's not actually what You shouldn't be asking me for that, because that's not actually of influence. It should be, um, like I, yes, I'm an editor, but you don't need an editor to be your endorser. Yeah. Unless your book is about editing.
Mike Michalowicz:
About editing In regards to the launch of the money habit, um, I think I reached out to maybe 20 influencers or so forth. I didn't go aggressive. I mean, I, I could reach out to a hundred or more if I was pushing, but since we're entering a new space, I wanted this to be a little more natural and fluid and not what I call artificial. Um, there is one person that I may gain access to, it's, but it's,
it's a long term play and I gotta make sure I'm adding value to them. And it's Mark Manson. Is he the author of The Subtle Art of Not giving an f?
AJ Harper:
I don't remember.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, he has a huge, lemme see. A subtle art. Uh, he has a, yeah, mark Manson. He has a massive following in a community that is individuals as opposed to entrepreneurs. And so, uh, I'm seeing I may have a way to offer significant value to him, and I, I'm gonna pursue that. And in the back of my mind is, oh, maybe I can, uh, if it serves him also gain value at some point. So, uh, but
there isn't anyone I wish I reached out to that didn't. I just see there's now authors and a network of folks that I wanna access that I haven't had access to before because they're outside of the entrepreneurial space. Um, yeah. And, and I'm gonna keep doing it. I, this is the year of building the network in new ways and further and, and I leverage the platforms I have, I have that author meetup group. It's been, I, I cannot lauded enough. Like e everyone listening to the show, start a group a, a start, a room that you can't get invited into, but wish you were. And if you become a facilitator of that room, then you become part of the room.
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Anything else, uh, we wanna talk about? Are we good?
AJ Harper:
No, I just, I, I wanna close by just saying, I think, um, we talked about a lot of things not to do and things to try, but you're, I guarantee you if you're listening to this, you have not asked as many people as you could and to just please go forward anyway. I don't want anybody here to be worried. Oh, did, would AJ and Mike think this is okay? I think if it's coming from a genuine place and you've actually taken the time to build rapport and you thought of something you could do that would be out of the box, you're, you're in pretty good stead. Give it a try. Yeah. It's, I'd rather that you try than avoid it. And it, again, we can smell it when it's not genuine. So really think about why do I care about this person? Do I care about this person because I think they can help me? Or do I actually really like their books? Do I like what they have to say? Do I think we have shared interests and values and go for those people? And then it'll be much easier to ask. Because I think part of the reason people are afraid is 'cause they know what's not coming from a genuine place.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, yeah. Then exactly. I think they agree a hundred percent. Yeah. And I would, my ad is reach out through service. Mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
Oh, good. Like, what are we gonna do
Mike Michalowicz:
Exactly. So best book ever. So here's my ask to our audience. I hope I, we've been great service to you. I hope we have great rapport. I ask that you get a copy of write, I must read and, uh, you're saying, but I already have a copy. I ask that you get a copy to gift to a aspiring or established author. It will transform their lives because it's already transformed yours. And if you don't have one, if you are the aspiring or established author, get it for yourself. Also visit aj harper.com. Uh, we have an imprint, we meaning, uh, the Mike Catalyst brand has an imprint at page two called Simplified where we Do and are seeking entrepreneurial authors. Uh, and we do serve the entrepreneurial community. Alright, our website's, dw tb podcast.com. We have tons of free materials there created by aj. We also, um, would love to see your questions and comments. We'd love for you to rate and review the show, you know, all the routine and the emails at hello@dwtbpodcast.com. Any questions, comments, you have just put simplified in the subject line if you're looking to apply for Simplified as an author. Alright. I think that's all of our important, uh, asks. One last thing, please don't write that book. Write the greatest book you can.