In this episode, Mike and AJ hold nothing back and give their listeners every question they should ask themselves when deciding their publishing path. And the sooner an author asks themselves some of the biggies, the less wasted time, heartbreak, and struggle down the road. It’s not as simple as you may think, and you may be surprised by the alternatives our duo shares!
In this episode, Mike and AJ hold nothing back and give their listeners every question they should ask themselves when deciding their publishing path. And the sooner an author asks themselves some of the biggies, the less wasted time, heartbreak, and struggle down the road. It’s not as simple as you may think, and you may be surprised by the alternatives our duo shares!
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Episode 118: “New Publishing Path Decision Points”
Mike Michalowicz:
Welcome back to the Don't Write That book podcast where you can learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship. Follow along with us as we give you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts. Myself, Mike Michalowicz, and AJ Harper. Woo. I'm excited for this episode. Mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
Hey, thanks. Yeah. And we're taking, you know, we take our cues from the listeners and what we do day in and day out in the trenches. So the ideas about what to talk about and and how to frame it come from what we're living every single day.
Mike Michalowicz:
Hey, uh, for our listeners, I hear book write. I must read, we talked about last week. One of the, the emails we talked about was from Lauren last week. She clearly read AJ's book. She acknowledged that and she finished a manuscript that is superior to the alternative. Not having any
AJ Harper:
Mike, I'm gonna
Mike Michalowicz:
Not having read
AJ Harper:
Something, I'm gonna gaze at you. A sandwich board. You know what those are?
Mike Michalowicz:
AJ Harper:
Yeah. I'm gonna get you a sandwich board. Or maybe you could be a mascot that's like a pencil or a typewriter. And I want you to have my book cover on it and stand on the corner. 'cause I feel like you would do that with, you talk about my book every episode. But I feel like if I gave that to you, you would stand on a street corner
Mike Michalowicz:
And I tried, you know what, if you're willing to make the purchase, I will do it and you can film it. And I'll walk through New York City with a sandwich board. 'cause there's no sandwich boards anymore. Not, not someone wearing one, you know, they're sitting there.
AJ Harper:
No, but that, but, but there are mascots.
Mike Michalowicz:
There are mascots. Oh yeah, they're, and those are creepy. It's in Times Square and it's just like,
AJ Harper:
Well, the, okay, that's how what I meant. I meant like the guys are like, look like a subway sandwich and they're outside the subway shop. Oh, yeah. You're thinking of the mascots that you're wait for people so that you can take your picture with them in Times Square. And that is the grungiest group of folks. Oh my God, this the hype. Go away, uh, fast if you see them
Mike Michalowicz:
A hundred percent. Um, I wanna show you something. Uh, hopefully it shows on camera. I gotta step away from it. But I'm wearing, I'm still wearing my spinal tap hat. I'll wear that for this episode next. But check out this one. Tell me if you know the movie this is from, it's my t-shirt. I gotta backup. Move my microphone. Hold on.
AJ Harper:
Oh God. Wait. I know. Wait.
Mike Michalowicz:
So sits for our listeners, uh, to say what it says on the shirt,
AJ Harper:
says, I ate a 96 er. Yeah, shoot. I can, it's so, it's a very famous can't, can't remember now, but I know what it is, but I just can't get it outta my mouth.
Mike Michalowicz:
Very famous comedian. I think he's a Canadian of Canadian descent. Um, he's passed away unfortunately, uh, quite a while ago. Um, I don't think he was on Saturday Night Live, but, um, okay.
AJ Harper:
His name's John Candy. I was gonna say it's John Candy.
Mike Michalowicz:
John Candy. And he, um, the movie I think was Uncle Buck, um, or the Great Outdoors, maybe This is the Great Outdoors. And there's a scene, he, he plans this vacation with his children. His, his family, uh, and his brother-in-law also comes and they go out for this one particular dinner at
a steakhouse. And there's a signup that says if you eat a 96 or your meal's free was a 96 ounce steak. Yeah. And so John can tries to eat this thing down at the very end. He's like, I'm done. And the chef comes out, he is like, you gotta eat the grizzle too.
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
And so you see him at the end and he's just, he's sick and he's hurling, but he's holding this t shirt. I'm like, I am wetting my pants. He's so funny. Um, so I, I bought the t-shirt.
AJ Harper:
You admire I was gonna say, was this a Christmas gift?
Mike Michalowicz:
No, I, I just bought it. I watched the movie. I'm like, I gotta, I gotta have that t-shirt.
AJ Harper:
You're you're very eighties decked out right now.
Mike Michalowicz:
I'm very a decked out spinal tap the
AJ Harper:
Whole outfit.
Mike Michalowicz:
Exactly. Exactly. So, okay, so we're gonna talk about the publishing path, and could you set the stage, just give us the primer on publishing and the different paths that are available?
AJ Harper:
Yeah, just really, really quick. We do have several episodes that cover these topics. Um, but there are three primary publishing paths. So there's traditional publishing, there's self-publishing, and then there's hybrid publishing, which is supposed to be like traditional publishing, except you make it financial investment. It's not always the case. There's a lot of hybrids out there that aren't really doing that. Mm. But within each of those paths, there are multiple options. Most people don't understand that. It just, the, a number of ways that you can publish is dizzying. And it all depends on what, what you wanna do. And a number of factors where people tend to go wrong is they think of it, first of all, they think of it as a binary. They say, when they come to me, they say, should I self-publish? Or traditional publish? Mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
Uh, first of all, there's three paths with a bunch of offshoots. So it's more like, should I do this? Or 95 other things? It's not just two. Secondly, secondly, I hear from people, and also I see these quizzes, you know, that say, figure out your publishing pad and Oh, I've never seen those. Okay? But all of the questions are, in my opinion, the wrong questions. They're all about how big is your platform? I just, followers do you have, they're not about what does the reader, what does the author want? What are their resources and what are their goals? And that's what you need to think about first. Instead of, what can I do think about, what do I want to do? Then you come up with a game plan. So instead of, can I traditionally publish? Oh, probably not because I don't have a big enough platform.
AJ Harper:
Fine, what? Moving on? No, it's, it's coming up with a game plan that A, B, C. Okay. So I would really love plan A to be this. And then if that doesn't work, I'm gonna do B. And if that doesn't work, I'm gonna do CI just did my authorship planning when we're recording this. I had just done my annual authorship planning event this time. It was a, it was a day and a half instead of three hours. It was, it was so good. And I told everybody it's plan A, B, or C. There is no d, D is quit, D is nothing. It's A, B, or C. We need to shift our thinking from what can I do and focus it to what, what do I want? What are my resources and what are my goals? And that's, so you consider a set of what I call decision points, right? So what, what you might think of it as priorities. What matters to me most and then be somewhat matters to you is how you decide plan A, B, and C.
Mike Michalowicz:
Well, I wanna ask a question around the order of A, B, and C. So there's traditional hybrid itself. We wrote, fix this next, and we talk about this concept, A, C, D, C, which is attract customers or prospects, I should say convert them to customers, deliver, and then collect. But we also mentioned that it doesn't always move in that order. You could do work on spec Spec where you are delivering a service before you even have a client. And then they can choose to engage you based upon the quality of your work. So A, C, D, C can start moving around in the publishing path is a always starting with the consideration of traditional. And if that doesn't work, then you go to hybrid or, okay, so gimme an example of where the order may start off with self publishing. And if that doesn't work, you're going on to something because
AJ Harper:
You're gonna consider a set of decision points. So why would you put self-publishing as plan A if you wanted 100% of the control? Okay. So then you're only if the, if you want, if control is your primary factor, then what you want is you can only do self-publishing because hybrid you, you have most, but not all. And traditional, you have quite a lot, but not all. But it's, if it's imperative that you need control over every decision, then you must self-publish. Or if it's, if you want all the money, you must self-publish.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. So this is super helpful. So it's not necessarily a sequence. Certain decision points may, um, reduce you to a certain category exclusively. So why don't we, why don't we go through all the decision points? And what I wanna do is kind of rate which of these elements, traditional, hybrid, or uh, self is most significant for that decision point.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Sorry, we were talking over each other. But yes, we can go through that. That's in, I was gonna give you another example, but we'll just go through the, so I wanna go share the original decision points and then I've added two more, which is what inspired for the first time in a long time, I've added two additional ones to consider.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. I, well, I can't wait to hear those two new. Tell me what the, I guess, existing decision points are in whatever order you feel appropriate.
AJ Harper:
Oh yeah. I mean, we can just go, go through the lines. So the first one would be credibility. And so for a long time, you know, if you wanted credibility, you couldn't self-publish. That's not the case anymore. But it might still be a deciding factor for you. So for example, I've had academics
who worked with me, they have to, they have to get a traditional deal because credibility matters, especially if they're on the tenure track, you know? So, um, it might be less of an issue at some institutions, educational institutions, but I've had a lot of people who say, I've gotta get a deal.
'cause I won't be respected in my educational institution if I die state. But the average person isn't going to necessarily need the credibility. But here's a, here's a couple of other reasons why you might need it. Um, CEOs, sometimes, some corporate people, they definitely need it because they, you know, it has a, a cache, it has gravitas.
AJ Harper:
And so that's important to them. I think it also helps you if you're trying to get on the New York Times list. Can't say for certain, but it definitely does. And finally, um, there are some media outlets, you know, big broadcast media outlets that favor people who have, you know, traditional specifically big five deals, publishers they know and recognize and work with regularly. So these are factors if none of that matters to you more than and more than other things, right? So you might say, well, I kind of want that, but I really care more about not having to spend a dime. You know, like, so you kind of have to weigh all these decision points, but credibility is, I've just laid it out for you. So if it matters to you, then you're gonna want plan a traditional plan B, a top tier, your hybrid that has trade distribution, plan C, self-publishing.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Okay. So I'm doing my little ranking here. So when it comes to credibility, uh, traditional still can give you an edge and you gave the parameters around that. Um, I love this. This could be a matrix and so
AJ Harper:
Doesn't work. I have it.
Mike Michalowicz:
You have a matrix, like, like a download for this?
AJ Harper:
Uh, yeah, well, no, it's, yes. In fact, I have a publishing matrix. You can get it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, it's, how would people get that publishing matrix?
AJ Harper:
It's, uh, oh God, I look in the show notes. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry to my team, Sade and Laura that I forgot how they get it, but it's on my
Mike Michalowicz:
Well so sign up@ajharper.com. Yeah,
AJ Harper:
You can go to, go to hello@ajharper.com and they will make sure you get it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, I, I think anyone listening in right now, just sign up@ajharper.com. Just sign up for the newsletter because it's this material, but it's all these materials. Um, okay, so our listeners follow along, they can make their own matrix. We talked about credibility. What's the next category? I see revenue.
AJ Harper:
Yep. Revenue. Sorry, I'm clicking between screens. Um, so revenue would be money in. So do you want most of the money, right? Ah, or do you want a fraction of the money?
Mike Michalowicz:
And do you, what about the consideration? Well, a couple things. First of all, the return, what I found is for my books, traditional publishing has yielded around $3 and 50 cents per print book. Uh, it's different for audio, it's different for Kindle or electronic, but around three 50, um, hybrid is around six 50, almost seven. So almost double. And self-publishing is approaching nine or 10. Now, there's other variables that come in and cost and so forth, but that gives you a sense. But AJ what about the timing of money itself, itself? If you traditionally publish and you get in advance, you get money on contract signing and self-publishing, it's not until your, your books out in the market. Is that a significant concern for most people?
AJ Harper:
It could be. I mean, I'm, in my experience, it's, it's not, you know, in my experience, it's less is a very, it's not even one of my decision points. Um, primarily, I mean, it, it, you're getting into the weeds there a little bit, but you know, as you know, you should never, um, you should never take your advance and use it to live on, like, that's market, that's marketing money.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, agreed. My experience is, unless your advance is six figures, US dollars or more like, you know, a hundred thousand or more, um, it, it shouldn't be a factor at all because it does come out in tranches. It's usually over a two year period. So you're talking, you know, $25,000 at, at a time. Um, so only then, you know, if you're getting $10 million upfront for marketing, yeah. That, that could be life changing. And, and, and therefore you may wanna lean that way. Uh, I guess the flip side of revenue is cost. So what's your, your analysis around that?
AJ Harper:
This is a huge deciding factor if, you know, I've got a lot of people who have wonderful books and they don't have money to invest, right? So they ha they cannot spend money on publishing the book. So that's gonna be easy. Plan A is traditional because you're not investing in that. You might be spending money on marketing, I hope you are spending some, but you're not spending money to get the book to market. And so that only option is traditional. And then actually I would flip it so you wouldn't think, oh, hybrid's next is not, it's traditional self than hybrid because hybrid's more expensive.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, I concur. Um, for hybrid, you know, the, the ranges are all over the place. I minimally, I've seen people spend 30 to 40,000 to get a hybrid going. Um, but 60 to 70 is the kind of the norm from my experience. And it could be even low, low six figures, like a hundred, 110, 120.
AJ Harper:
I'm not an advocate of, by the way, I think that you're, I think that that's personally, I think that's nutty.
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, that includes printing costs, by the way. So just think about that variable.
AJ Harper:
But it would depend on your run.
Mike Michalowicz:
It depends on your run size and so forth. So those are considerations. But a hybrid will require a tranche of that money upfront where self-publishing, you might be able to stretch it out. Um, so yeah, and you're right, self-publishing can be less expensive because you can be more selective. But on the flip side, the hybrid brings in a qualified team. If it's a, if it's a recognized quality
hybrid. So, um, investment, there's also that consideration of return, um mm-hmm
traditional. But interestingly, you flipped it. Self-publishing is the second, um, lowest investment in hybrids. Generally the highest. What's the next category you got for decision points?
AJ Harper:
The next category is one that people don't put enough emphasis on and it's editing. So you, you, you, where are you going to get the best editing support?
Mike Michalowicz:
Hmm.
AJ Harper:
Where are you going to get it? So, uh, you're looking at, I would say Tide would be top tier, hybrid and traditional. But I gotta be honest with you, I can only really name a couple top tier hybrids that I feel have the editing chops.
Mike Michalowicz:
So I, I want to give you a little debate around this. I, I would say top tier hybrid, um, better editing than a traditional, because the hybrid and the traditional actually use the exact same editors. A top tier hybrid and the traditional will use the exact same editor, but the hybrid gives you better access to that editor. And so it's, it's more of a communal effort where the traditional seems to remove access to the editor. They're isolated.
AJ Harper:
I'm gonna push way back. You have experience with one top tier hybrid. That's
Mike Michalowicz:
Right.
AJ Harper:
So what you're actually talking about is page two is better.
Mike Michalowicz:
Correct.
AJ Harper:
That's not, they're, they're an anomaly in the industry. They're, they're the best for a reason, but no one operates like them.
Mike Michalowicz:
Hmm.
AJ Harper:
Okay. So you're skewed because you have experience with the very best in the industry.
Mike Michalowicz:
Right? But it's myopic it's very, very small.
AJ Harper:
Absolutely not the case tip. I'm just saying it, I'm gonna tell it like it is. It's absolutely not the case. And you know what? Honestly, if you have a hybrid with trade distribution and a and you love your editorial team, you should message me. You should email me at aj@ajharper.com and we can have a conversation. And maybe, I don't know about you, but in my experience, I'm not gonna name any names. I really think it's hard to find a top tier hybrid. I can name a couple. And so your experience is actually very just about one house.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, who are other houses you'd recommend for hybrid?
AJ Harper:
Um, I like idea press. I like she write.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Um, so for editing, we give a tie is is the final assessment of hybrid and traditional and self-publishing,
AJ Harper:
Depending on, depending on who the top hybrid is. And honestly, I I, I think some traditional houses are questionable too, especially if they're really small. You should remember how I said that there's a whole bunch of different options within each area. So for example, traditional publishing is not just the big five and its imprints. You could have, there's so many traditional publishers, many that you don't know about. Many that I dunno about. Yeah. And okay, having been a pub traditional publisher myself, remember I had a traditional publishing company and sold that company. I can tell you that you have to be mindful of how the editorial team works. So I just want you to, I just want you to consider that as a decision point. 'cause too many people are say, taking up hybrid deal or traditional deal and not considering it. Um, so there we go.
Mike Michalowicz:
Another decision point you mentioned, which I, uh, is earlier on in the list, but I may have missed it, is control.
AJ Harper:
No, we talked about it right at top. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Right at the top. Okay. Okay.
AJ Harper:
Oh, we talked about it as my example.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay, I got you. Okay. And so that self-publishing gives you the most control. Hybrid was in the middle. So self-publishing is the winner there. And traditional comes in quote last, um, which isn't necessarily a bad thing,
AJ Harper:
I would also say that it's not as much loss of control as the myths. What have you believe? And as you know, well,
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now let's go to timing.
AJ Harper:
That's a big one.
Mike Michalowicz:
Lay it on me.
AJ Harper:
If you are, if you need to publish this year, you are going to be self-publishing.
Mike Michalowicz:
So this, this, this year, meaning the sooner you need it done 12 month window, you can self publish. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
There are some hybrids that will do it for you. But then I would question if they actually have trade distribution or not, which you may not actually want. But, um, you know, the main deciding factor in all timing is whether or not you have trade distribution, which will, which is another decision point. But, um, you have to get real about this. If you want your book out soon, you are going to self-publish it. Then plan B is hybrid and plan C is traditional.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Um, so I had a call with someone who in the business space is Insta famous. Um, but bigger than that already published a book traditionally. And they said, Hey Mike, we wanted to talk to you about hybrid and other publishing models. So I explained to them, and they said, well, we have a deadline of, now this is broadcasting February, but I talked to 'em at the very beginning of January. They said, we have a deadline of this end of summer, so August, September
AJ Harper:
They're being shortsighted. They're being shortsighted.
Mike Michalowicz:
I know, and, and I, I know this person well enough. I'm like, I really like them. But it, it's an intermediary that they have, uh, someone internal that's working with them. And I've, I've texted them like, we gotta talk. Like, I think you're making a mistake. And, uh, but so fastest isn't necessarily best. But I do see authors getting afraid, aj, that if I don't do it now, um, I'm gonna miss the opportunity. Uh, my IP will be out in the world. And what's the argument for, for slowing the role a little bit?
AJ Harper:
Um, well, I mean, if you want all the other, you know, you want the wide distribution, you want the credibility, you want all these other aspects. Also, by the way, y'all think that it's not gonna take that much time. It takes so much time. So let's say your book is done right now, let's say it's all done except for the production. So it sounds like maybe they've written it and they're ready to go and they wanna publish by the end of summer. We're recording this in January. I would say that I, you can do it, but I could do it. Let me put it like this. I could do it. Okay. I have my people. I know the ropes, I know the problems. I know exactly how to get that thing done. I can totally do that. The average person is not educated enough about publishing to be able to navigate that well.
AJ Harper:
And then further, you're, you're still have to go through the whole production process, which is copy, edit, type, set, proofread a couple times, record an audio book, all of the sales positioning, all of the, the cover design, interior page design as time consuming. So how are we gonna have
time to market if all your time is spent on production trying to get it out the door in time, how are you gonna market? So right now, if you're trying to publish by the end of the summer, you've got eight months, which should all be it just, which is, you could do it to market your book. It's not ideal. I'd like you to have more than a year, but now most of your time is spent on production. So who, who is dedicating themselves full time to this endeavor? So now what's happening is you'll get it done. You'll get it out, but it's not gonna have the same impact.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. And I'd also argue that if you're writing or creating something while you need to market it, you don't necessarily know it because there's so much learning in the creation of the book. The Money habit, the first pass manuscript, the very first manuscript that we submitted is probably eight months prior to the actual launch, was when it was done. But there's such an understanding of the book that when it comes to communicating the marketing, networking with other influencers and giving them, arming them with messaging is so much more effective. I couldn't imagine trying to do all that marketing preparation and the manuscript is just being finished at the same time.
AJ Harper:
Oh, you're referring to the final pass pages, but we turned it in a year. We're recording this in January. We turned it in a year ago.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. They're the first manuscript. But
AJ Harper:
That's what this guy's looking for.
Mike Michalowicz:
Pardon
AJ Harper:
Me? That's what this person you're talking about needs like this. Oh,
Mike Michalowicz:
I know they do. I know, I know, I know. And, and they're not. And it's, it's, I really like them.
AJ Harper:
Okay, but here's the, here's here's now let's do the flip. You could, I think there's, um, merit in doing things fast if, if you have your priorities in order. Because remember I said it's not just, is it, it's also your goals. Goals are a factor. Do you just need it for clients? You don't really care if it's gonna be sold mainstream. If you know you don't really care. Fine.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. If it's true, if you don't care, you know. But the thing is that this person is this person, if I mention their name, they are in the, they're also in the business space. Their name I would say is an amplitude awareness of their name versus me, three, four, maybe even five times the amplitude that I have very influential. I'm so afraid that they come out with an inferior book
because of this unnecessary rush or, or maybe it's necessary. And now that could compromise them. Oh, they're really good in these other areas, but they books, they really suck.
AJ Harper:
Well, okay. So you know, again, if you're, it's a, it's not a bad thing to publish quickly. If you have the quality controls in place and you are not concerned about, um, you know, say trade distribution or a big launch or make a na, national bestseller list, if you don't care about any of that stuff, then that's okay. Go, go ahead. So that's why I say goals are a factor just as much as these decision points.
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, you have a next decision point, which is submission process. How do you rate those? What is it? What is it and how do you rate it?
AJ Harper:
So I actually throw, I've been talking about this for years. Not everyone wants to go through it. The submission process is if you want a traditional publisher, for most people, there are exceptions. If your best friend is an editor or if they, you, some freakish awesome thing happened and everybody's talking about you and an editor reaches out to you, those are lightning in a bottle moments that most folks have to get an agent in order to get one of those deals. Or at a minimum, you can also submit to some publishers do not require agented submissions. And so, but you still need a proposal of some kind top tier hybrid. You need a proposal of some kind. So do you wanna deal with that or not? That's the question. It's a yes or no, you know, 'cause it adds months, it's, it, it adds months to even start the clock on the book.
Mike Michalowicz:
So the rating then is, so I'm clear self-publishing, there's the least demand on submission process. So there's no submission. There is none. Okay. Hybrid, uh, generally less submission elements than just because
Speaker 3:
You don't need an agent for it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Right. Do all traditionals require an agent? No. Okay.
Speaker 3:
But the ones if you're going for big five, yes.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, yeah. Most big fives and all their
AJ Harper:
Imprints
Mike Michalowicz:
And all. Yeah. I, I just know portfolio. 'cause that's my experience is is the exception. They take direct submissions still, which is shocking actually. Um, let me give you the ranking so far. Just as a recap, when it comes to credibility, the, the winner, meaning what gives you the little edge is traditional and, but you gave some specific parameters around that. When it came to revenue, the most return per book is on the self-publish. Uh, lease was on traditional, but when it comes to investment, um, the least expensive investment was traditional. And the biggest investment I think was hybrid. Uh, in that case. Yeah. Okay. Now when it came to control, um, the self publishing has the most control and the traditional, least when it came to editing, it sounded like we ended up with a tie with traditional hybrid, but traditional editing out hybrid, slightly on editing quality. Um, and then timing. You can, you can race along in self-publishing where traditional will have kind of the longest journey. Those aren't necessarily positive or negative things. Um, sometimes racing along, as we already debated, it could be one of the worst things you do. And this submission process, uh, there is no parameters for self-publishing. That's the easiest path. Traditional has a lot more and there's often an agent involved. N now this is kind of the big drum roll. You have two, two, that sounds like all the decision points, but you got two new ones.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Darn. Hang on. I was just checking. I don't think that's true about portfolio.
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, Noah takes direct submission. I'm
AJ Harper:
Okay. Don't say anything like he might, I think that's true because of people you're recommending. I don't think the average person can do that.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, I, I can test that. I can test that from experience.
AJ Harper:
I, I don't know. 'cause they're pretty, pretty secure in that. Well,
Mike Michalowicz:
I know what you can do is you, you can simply go to, uh, the site for any, uh, publisher and they're imprints. They do take direct submissions. Mythe
AJ Harper:
Agent. 'cause I just, because I know that, that they don't and I double checked and they don't,
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, it says, it says it's required. I
AJ Harper:
Didn't get anybody sent trying to send stuff to Portfolio. Hey Noah,
Mike Michalowicz:
I heard Mike on the podcast.
AJ Harper:
I'm saying to Noah, do not do that. I think that's an a different situation. And
Mike Michalowicz:
I will tell you a a, a grand mistake that authors make is without an agent, they go in ill prepared and they do a poor submission and it does put you on the X list. Like your name is not forgotten. And if you do a crappy proposal, uh, without representation and you come in bad, that that could hurt you for subsequent submissions.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. So I've got two new ones now. And this is the first blame on me, first time that I've thought they had as much considerate. It's not that I've never thought about it, it's just that now I feel like they have, they're equal to all these other considerations. Right? Oh, and we, you know what we forgot to say distribution. I think I forgot to put it on my list. That's a major one. Let me get to that first. Okay. So that's always been on. Do you want trade distribution in a nutshell, trade distribution is the difference between fulfilling demand, which is what other distribution can do, and fulfilling and creating demand. Mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
Are they out there trying to get it sold for you in advance of publication versus are they just warehousing it and filling orders? Where is a big difference? Huge difference. And if you don't want trade distribution, then the timing shifts for you and you free yourself up. But if you do want trade distribution, then that is going to be traditional or top tier hybrid. That actually top tier hybrid that actually has it. Because not all hybrids have it. And sometimes they say they have it and you have to ask deeper questions like, is this your own sales team or are you partnered with say, a big five or an indie, um, indie trade distributor like IPG for example. So you have to ask
deeper questions. But this is a major decision point because most people don't understand that if you're self-published, it's not that you can't get on bookstore shelves, but it is not likely.
Mike Michalowicz:
Our, uh, hybrid publisher, page two, uh, shot down an idea, had had an edgy idea and they shot down by avoiding conversations around it. Um, because they, they have a distributor, which is McMillan, which is a rarity for any hybrid to have a publisher, uh, a distributor like that, that can get into all these different things. So I wanted to do something special with McMillan odd and Unique. And they're like, we, we just can't. We just can't.
AJ Harper:
So I'll say she writes has, um, I think it's Simon Schuster.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, nice. Okay.
AJ Harper:
Distribution now. And at Amplify, I think might be Simon Schuster, I can't remember, but they also have Big Five. So what Big Five has been doing has been moving into, um, distribution for hybrids and even for self-publishing packages. And they've even been starting to provide services for indie authors. So Big, big Five is actually trying to get into these other markets. And I think it's because of the reasons that I'm about to share with you.
Mike Michalowicz:
So lay 'em on me. What are the, what are these reasons?
AJ Harper:
So the first one is, uh, direct, well the sec, let me just do this in a different order now 'cause of what I just said. The first one is direct sales, right? So direct sales, meaning you the author are selling this book. Mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
So they're just going with direct. Why is this a decision point? Because it's going to be easier for you to do this. Your plan A is gonna be self, your plan B is gonna be hybrid and C is traditional. 'cause it's much harder to work with traditional and these different outlets, TikTok shop, Instagram shop, et cetera, for the author to do this successfully. So your publisher is plenty happy to do it in those places, but if you are gonna be doing direct sales, you need the flexibility of being able to control how that's gonna work. And it needs to be financially viable for you,
Mike Michalowicz:
Substantial revenue through direct sales, but actually exposure to markets that you wouldn't have otherwise.
AJ Harper:
And so this is becoming, this is, we're just gonna see more and more and more and more of this. And if you want to be able to do that in the easiest, most cost effective way, it's gonna have to be self hybrid, traditional for your game plan.
Mike Michalowicz:
Got it. Such a, such an interesting decision point. What, tell, tell me about the next one. This is the big one, it sounds like.
AJ Harper:
No, that direct sales was the big one.
Mike Michalowicz:
Is the big one. Okay.
AJ Harper:
Yeah, it's really shifted my thinking about myself.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah,
AJ Harper:
Because also directs, so let's, let's just, let's just talk strategy for a second for, I'm writing two books this year. The, the second book I'm writing will be the third book I'm publishing under my own name even though I've written dozens of books, right? So, um, I need to increase my readership and expand it into different markets in preparation for the book book three. And so I'm actually using book two to help me do that. And I need to be able to do direct sales for book two so that I can, because that, that is gonna get me way over into other markets. So it becomes this long game strategy of trying to think, okay, wait, I'm gonna publish which way for this book, and then which way for this book, because direct sales not only gives you more money, but like you said earlier, gives you, expands you into different markets and now you've got an expanded readership and it, you could be publishing a book just to break out into that readership. You kind, this is a long game, y'all, it's a long game. At least career authorship is. So for me, I've had to really think, okay, what's my game plan considering what I'm trying to do with book three? Does that make sense?
Mike Michalowicz:
It makes a hundred percent sense. We, as a little experience share, are using TikTok shop with the money habit because it is through a hybrid we can do direct sales and we're now finding an influencers, micro influencers that are getting an affiliate fee as a result. Um, which is something we could never have done before.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. So to me this has, uh, this has always been around, but now it's, we've tipped the scale. So we've reached it tow point where it's now a major factor in choosing and publishing that
Mike Michalowicz:
That is Juy. What's the other decision point factor.
AJ Harper:
The other would be IP flexibility. And, you know, so since, since ai, it's become so much easier for knockoffs, workbooks, all this stuff that comes up instantaneously when you, when your book comes out, when you're traditionally published, they move at a glacial pace. Yeah. They have rules about workbooks. You might not even get them to even consider a workbook for five freaking years, years. And then you also are barred from doing it yourself unless you built it into your contract to start. So as we've discussed on prior episodes, the tragedy that is not having an official profit first workbook,
Mike Michalowicz:
Ugh. And, and the wor and the worst part is there's these AI generated ones by third parties. They, they kind of walk the fine line of gray law where they, they, they post these pro first workbooks on Amazon and by how they manipulate the title and so forth. Uh, it kind of looks like it's me, but it's not. And uh, it's very difficult to fight. It's totally, but people are buying them.
AJ Harper:
It's totally legal. Dr. Carrie Burn is one of my alums, one of my students, she's a New York Times bestselling and USA today bestselling author of Joys Span. And within a day there was about 11 workbooks for Joys span up there. And she knew about it because somebody emailed her and said, I just bought your workbook. She's like, thanks I didn't write it. Um, yeah, which is, which is even worse than the money factor because they're crappy. So it's bad for your brand,
Mike Michalowicz:
It harms your brand so much. So, okay, so the ranking for IP flexibility where we can make this custom stuff like workbooks, what was the ranking again?
AJ Harper:
So it's, it's gonna be self hybrid, traditional, just like rock sales. Having that IP flexibility, having that sales and distribution flexibility is becoming increasingly important because you need to move quickly and, and the traditional industry, it just doesn't work like that.
Mike Michalowicz:
Can I say this has been one of my favorite episodes that we've done. Like, it's so interesting. This feels like choose your own adventure. It it is, it feel, it feels like many people go in with this jaded opinion on not any of these factors are made. Just one. I I wanna be traditional because I wanna be famous. They think massive credibility comes, or I wanna self-publish 'cause I got, um, I wanna make tons of money. Uh, I love this, this brings such a judicial approach to this.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. And this is, I will also say, this is why you've got to have some good guidance. You can't just, yeah, you can't mess around with this. You, you've gotta talk to people who've been there, done that, you know, and you're listening to this podcast, so you're doing it right now. Let us be
that guide for you. But there's so many of these factors to consider. It's why when people say that question, I said at the top of the hour, should I still publish your traditional? And I'm like, wrong question. Um, there's too many if then statements and I need to ask you about 50 other questions and you need to ask these questions of yourself. The decision points help you. I'm gonna update the matrix that I already have. I created it in 2018 for my workshop students. 'cause I just wanted you to be able to do, like, put your f you know, like, okay, do you want this? Okay, then you put
your finger down. Okay, now go like on the maze. You know, and it, that's what it looks like. But I've gotta add these now 'cause it's a real, it's chilly changed. I wouldn't have said this when I created it in 2018.
Mike Michalowicz:
So go to aj harper.com to get that matrix sign up for her newsletter plus tons of other stuff. Plus you have retreat spots for Madeleine Island. Um, possibly still available
AJ Harper:
A week. You should check because we usually are sold out by the end of spring. So I would really get on it. Um, and I want you to come to riding Sprint Marathon. It's a free event that I do twice a year. It's on March 21st from nine to four Eastern. You can, you don't have to come for the whole deal, but you are gonna have an incredible experience. You can write with published authors. You don't have to have anything to write when you come. I give writing prompts. I
create new writing prompts every year that get you going. So if you're just starting and you wanna just put your toe in the water, I will tell you what you could write during that time. Or you can knock out something you've been working on. Whatever we accept everyone, it's a great event and I only do it twice a year, so you don't wanna miss it.
Mike Michalowicz:
I will. I intend to be there too up. Put my calendar. Um, so we can have a little, don't write that book, uh, cheer, uh, at some point during the day. Uh, the Money Habit is out now. So go to your favorite retailer. The, I'm so proud of this book. I think it'll serve you deeply. Um, plus you get to learn more about how AJ and I work together by just experiencing and consuming the book itself. So get your copy, it'll serve you. Also, selfishly, it serves me, uh, as books get sold, algorithms promote 'em more. Next week we're gonna talk about finishing your book When Life gets in the Way, which sounds like happens to everybody
AJ Harper:
Um, yeah. It's when it's when life is lengthy.
Mike Michalowicz:
When Life Gets Lifey