In this episode, Mike and AJ dive deep into one area of authorship most newbies never consider: post-reader engagement! Not only do they share their own strategies for keeping their books “alive” after launch but also talk about how long authors should plan to keep engagement. Hint: it’s more than a few weeks!
Be sure to visit https://dwtbpodcast.com for more information and add your name to start receiving their newsletter. If you’d like to support this show, rate, subscribe and leave a review on your podcast app.
“It’s Gonna Be Okay,” with Dr. Roseann
Defy, by Dr. Sunita Sah
Dream Bold, Start Smart, by Tatiana Tsoir
AJ Harper, website
AJ’s Socials:
Mike Michalowicz, website
Mike’s Socials:
Episode 76:
“Post-launch Reader Engagement Series”
Mike Michalowicz: Welcome back to the Don't Write That Book podcast, where you can learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship. Follow along with us. As we give you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts, myself, Mike Michalowicz, and A. J. Harper. So, so your wife, what, say again?
AJ Harper: She would, used to drive to Peekskill for work, which is about 45 minutes. And uh, so she would then listen to this podcast sometimes. But now that she's not in the car, zero. I mean, I could ask her, but she's, she likes to listen to music, so.
Mike Michalowicz: The only reason Krista listened to our podcast was I referenced her in one.
AJ Harper: You referenced her in a lot of them.
Mike Michalowicz: Well, I referenced her, uh, story. I do reference her often. So there's a story about her.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: And so I guess my daughter tipped her off and said, Oh, dad talked about you. So the first thing I get is rolled eyes. That's not accurate, Mike. Oh, no. And it was, it was like this little nuanced thing she was talking about.
AJ Harper: I mean, you always, you have a little spin.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. That's why I tell her, I'm like, you know, to make a story fun, you got to add like, you know, some fun elements. And she's like, Oh, the shoes weren't black. They were gray or something. Like, what
AJ Harper: does it matter? Well, we need to crack that in the book then. Yeah. Is this the shoe story?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. But it wasn't even that it was, it was something like, it was so innocuous. It's irrelevant. But then she goes, I got to tell you something. She goes, AJ's voice is magnetic. It's just lovely. It's intoxicating.
AJ Harper: I love that so much.
Mike Michalowicz: And I acknowledge that. Your voice carries the show. It's like it's like the beauty and the beast The show I got I have this nasally like crunchy slurry mumbling voice, and then you have this angelic voice.
It's like—
AJ Harper: I think you're exaggerating on both ends, but that's
Mike Michalowicz: I don't think so.
AJ Harper: Would you say crunchy?
Mike Michalowicz: Maybe not crunchy, but definitely mumbly, nasally and a little grunty at times.
AJ Harper: Okay, you're being too hard on yourself. But thank you for the content. Thank you. I love any compliment from her. I just I'm like a fan from afar. And by the way, the reader feedback we got in the first round. What are your favorite stories? Almost all of them Krista's stories.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, really interesting. Uh, and the feedback from the first round too is, well this was more from Kendra, we need more, we have aspirational stories of the after, but we need some more of the in, in it.
Um, and Krista, she's the in it's right now. There's a little bit of me of the in it's, but there's a lot of her in the in it's, and the trauma around money. And I think that's another reason it resonated so much.
AJ Harper: Oh, yeah. I mean, we've never talked so much about her.
Mike Michalowicz: Never.
AJ Harper: She's always been in the context of your story. But she has her stories. Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: For the first time.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes, for the first time.
AJ Harper: And isn't it lovely that they're the ones people love?
Mike Michalowicz: I love it. I love it. And she's willing to come in and do an interview, podcast, video, to talk about her story.
AJ Harper: Really? Yeah,
Mike Michalowicz: Mike, that's courageous. Yeah.
AJ Harper: You know what we could do? Or some deeper dives? We don't have guests normally, but I think family, we can include family.
Mike Michalowicz: On the show?
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, yeah.
AJ Harper: Oh, you were thinking otherwise.
Mike Michalowicz: Independently, but if you Oh, yeah,
AJ Harper: no, that's right. Remember we were gonna do the, how, what's it like being married to an author? Yeah. With our wives? Yeah, yeah. I don't know, I have to ask, I still haven't had the courage to ask my wife.
Mike Michalowicz: You know what would happen? Is you and Krista would hit off and start talking about something else. Me and Polly would be in fights about the best guitarist and solo. It would just be arguing like that's bull****. Eruption? Eruption? Are you kidding me?
AJ Harper: The last, the last, the last time we recorded, there was that texting fight over. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: So this is how maniacal I am. I went back home that night and listened to Eruption five times in a row. And then I listened to Spanish Fly five times in a row. I'm like, is she crazy? Eruption? Yeah, it sounds magnificent, but it's just, it's just, It's a blend of practice stuff he's doing. So it's a demonstration of all skills, but Spanish Fly is on an acoustic classical guitar. It's so more technically sophisticated. So I'm like, is she crazy?
AJ Harper: So you were having an imaginary fight with my wife about Eddie Van Halen.
Mike Michalowicz: I was pretending we were sitting next to each other, and I'm like elbowing her and saying, Polly, come on! And she's looking at me saying, you idiot, it's eruption. I'm like, no.
AJ Harper: At least you'll have a lot to talk about when you visit us this summer. Mike Michalowicz: I know.
AJ Harper: I'll just leave. I'll just leave the room.
Mike Michalowicz: There's um, This is the one episode Polly is going to listen to. That's my feeling. Today, today we're gonna talk about post launch reader engagement strategies. I think this is one of the most overlooked things.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: It was interesting because we record three episodes a day, so this will play over three weeks. But yesterday we were at the author salon and the question or conversation of marketing came up. And it was interesting how many authors said, I feel uncomfortable doing it. I don't do it. Why doesn't the publisher do more of it?
And that was just regarding the launch. When it came to the post launch conversation, it was the most anti climatic conversation at all, because nothing happened. They're like, well, what else do you do for marketing? And no one really had much to say. And these are established authors.
AJ Harper: Yeah, I don't think people are, I don't think people think too much about the, after the launch and what needs to happen. Not, just again, out of ignorance. I think all of this stuff is just, they don't know. They just don't know.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Well, we're going to kick into post launch reader engagement strategies on this episode. I'm joined in studio by my friend and writing partner, A. J. Harper. What I admire about you is you've written the most important book in the industry for authors. It's called Write a Must-Read. Um, and for our listeners, get your copy today. It was brought up more than any other book. At our event yesterday was Write A Must-Read. So Jesse brought it up right in the beginning and then bing, bing, bing, uh, I'm about to say Barbara again. Roseann across from you is like, Oh my God, it's, you know, she was very Italian about it.
Stands up, starts throwing rosary beads at people. You got to read this.
AJ Harper: See, that's the nuance.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, that's the nuance.
AJ Harper: That's the nuance.
Mike Michalowicz: Um, it's an extraordinary book. I'm so happy you're contributing to. The author society with your work and you have a new book that I literally do not know what it's about and I am anticipating it so much.
I love what your strategy is. I don't want to know until until the big reveal and you did last night too. You're like, I have a new book coming out, won't tell you. It's a game changer. And Jesse's just sitting there saying, yes, it is.
AJ Harper: Yeah. But just know that that's self-protection. It's actually not because I'm trying to do a big marketing thing. I can, I cannot talk about it till I'm absolutely sure what it is.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, so you're still refining the concept?
AJ Harper: Not the concept, but I I know I'm gonna discover new things about it. And I won't want to do that if I talk about it too much. This is me protecting my own creative energy right now.
Mike Michalowicz: Gotcha,
AJ Harper: but I did say enough to my publisher page two Which you also have now, which now we're in the same publisher family. We haven't talked about. We weren't I was not there to be with you As part of Mike's team.
Mike Michalowicz: That's right.
AJ Harper: I was there because I'm also a page two author. Yeah. But we did, we were, we're also on the team.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. That was pretty cool. Yeah. That's really cool. AJ Harper: Isn't that interesting? It felt very good to me.
Mike Michalowicz: That community, you can see the inherent collaborative nature. There was this air of kindness. Kindness.
AJ Harper: Canadians, man.
Mike Michalowicz: Canadians. That I didn't see in any other publishing industry.
AJ Harper: No. And I, I want to say, um, you, you, Mike Michalowicz, author of nine business books and a forthcoming book that I think is going to, I really do think is going to be next level, like Profit First.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm starting to feel that too. I am so all in on this.
AJ Harper: Like I'm kind of buzzing with like hmm, especially if you really stay focused on the Marketing of it and kind of like that's
Mike Michalowicz: the key and that's where I'm feeling it.
AJ Harper: Before you move on to the next thing
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: I feel so strongly that you're just gonna kill it. But I want to say one thing. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: I… Well, I got home last night and it was raining and you know, Roseanne Capana Hodge.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah
AJ Harper: Before we went.
Mike Michalowicz: That name, it just feels like a Saturday Night Live episode. Rosanna Capana Hodge.
AJ Harper: Yeah, but she fits.
Mike Michalowicz: The Lima Beans, neither a Lima nor a Bean.
AJ Harper: She's the best. I feel almost like she's a soul sister for me. I just adore her. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: She, um, was so kind. I've, Carlos is driving me. It's been my driver for 12 years. Uh, we'll just drive you home. It's on the way. And I said, are you sure? And she said, yeah, it's on the way. So we're in Carlos's minivan.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's great.
AJ Harper: Driving home in the rain. It was the best. I had, it was like a party, not like a party party, but just if you were inside, could you imagine the most New York experience, even after 20 years living here?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: I was like, this is so, this is the most New York thing ever. She's going off and he's interjecting. Let me tell you. And they're back and forth and the pointing and the whole thing.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, I love it.
AJ Harper: She's so smart. She's so kind. She's the real deal.
Mike Michalowicz: I dare say she's an owner of 10 businesses or such.
AJ Harper: Oh, yeah, but let me just say, we're not even saying what she helps parents who have kids that have, you know, behavior challenges, anxiety, all these different things. She knows how to solve that problem without medication.
And she has one of the, she didn't say it last night. I almost interjected on her behalf. She didn't toot her own horn. She didn't toot her own horn at all. She's a freaking rock star in her industry. And she is one of the most popular podcasts, period.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, really?
AJ Harper: Yes, she's, she talks about dysregulated kids. And she knows how to help. And she's, I'm telling you, you got to watch out for her. But she drops me off, Carlos pulls into my driveway, and I'm like, bye, thanks for dropping me off. They head off to Connecticut. And I walk in the house and my wife had waited up for me. And she's, I said, you know, it was so nice to just see Mike in a room full of authors getting to have a conversation with his publisher that he's been wanting to have in a room with other authors for 14 freaking years. (Yeah.) And to see you I feel like you're coming into your own through this experience and it's gonna let you be who you always wanted to be as an author where you weren't getting always getting the pushback because people might not know this about you, but you're just a giver giver giver and you want to be
Mike Michalowicz: Thank you.
AJ Harper: You want to be in the room and lift everybody up and help each other. And you want to be in those conversations and you keep having to start them by yourself. And last night you didn't start that one.
Mike Michalowicz: Right! I actually felt that walking in. I'm like, wow, this is what I've been waiting for. Um, and I, I did my little soapbox thing. I asked permission, the good guys need to win, you know, and we need to win. This is not a battle. This is, um, goodness needs to elbow out not goodness.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: And it was clear was in this community.
AJ Harper: but you're right about the reader engagement strategies. We weren't really Getting into any we were mostly just talking philosophically about it. Yeah, and that's just fine
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, so and I think post launch there's a lot of opportunity here It seems like books are forgotten by the author, by the publisher, two weeks after the launch period It seems like okay. This one was done didn't do well or did well. Let's move on to the next It doesn't seem like there's much ongoing effort from the majority of the authorship community
AJ Harper: Yes, and I just think it's because people don't understand. I think they, they, they feel that they have this launch opportunity and if it doesn't go well, then [sad noise].
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. One of the things I've done with, uh, after launch marketing, that's been very effective is the collaborative webinars. I cannot over emphasize how effective these are. So let me just lay out the strategy. We've done it on a prior episode. Uh, it's funny as we're sitting here, my watch is like buzzing. Michael Bungay Stanier is texting me. I'm not sure why, but he's someone I did this with.
AJ Harper: Is your BFF yet?
Mike Michalowicz: He's mine, but I'm not his. So I feel bad for him. I told him that recently. I said, I love you and you're my BFF.
But I said, I totally realize I'm like the antithesis of who you want to hang out with. He's like, yeah. So I'm like, so we have a mutual understanding. Isn’t that funny? And I, I respect it. I would not be, I totally respect it. So he, Joey Coleman and I did a webinar together.
AJ Harper: I remember.
Mike Michalowicz: It was around employment. So we had finished the book. You and I finished all in all and had been in circulation say for three or four months. Michael had written many books in the space, but this book we were talking about specifically was The Coaching Habit and Joey Coleman wrote How to Never Lose an Employee Again. So what you do is all of us reached out to our collective communities, and we say we're putting on a free webinar where you're going to learn almost like a, it's this kind of hyper speed download of ideas from the collective set.
I will serve as the host, Mike and Michael and Joey will be the primary contributors. But if I have a thought, I'll interject it and. What I do is I hype up the audience and say, you know, we're here to learn Toronto distractions, 45 minutes of your hardest, most important questions and we're going to ask.
And then I'm directing, say, Mike, Michael, what's your feedback? Give me in 30 seconds. Joey, what's yours? And I'm asking the audience to take notes and when they have an idea to put it in the chat so other people can copy. And so the chat is just exploding and so forth and it's rich with all these ideas.
Then about 30 minutes in. I say, I want to take a quick pause to the audience and say, Michael and Joey are contributing their time. This was a no cost event. What's the value you're getting on a 1 to 10, 10 off the charts, 1, why am I even here? And you get 10, because it is. And then I say, I have one ask of you of our listeners.
Would you do this now? Buy a copy of Michael's book. And Joey's book. And if you feel compelled, also my book, I say, the reason I'm asking you this is first, it's the greatest way we can be of service to you. All the notes of the author have been consolidated, packaged and prepared for you to be of the greatest impact in their books.
So dollar for dollar is the greatest learning. And then I say, but there's a selfish reason. If you buy our book now, we're going to trigger the Amazon algorithm to connect our books together and market it to people like you. It manipulates the algorithm to our favor. So selfishly you're supporting us and the thing that we need, so if you're willing to support it, do it now and post in the chat.
What's interesting is when you tell the other reason this isn't just of service to you, but it's of service to me That's the most compelling reason for people to do it because if it's for them they can do it whenever they want. But if it's for me now, they get it And I would say 30% Sometimes even 35 percent of the audience takes that action and you start seeing the chat blowing up, just bought your book, bought all three.
This is amazing. Some people say I already have it. And then I'll say, if you already have it, this is the most ridiculous request on the planet. Would you buy another copy now to trigger
the algorithm and donate it to a friend or something like that? Doing it, got it. The next morning, you see the book sales increase.
So if we have. 300 people on the call. We're each selling a hundred books. That's a big deal in a single day. Then you see the books linked together within 24 hours also. So you, you could go to The Coaching Habit and you would see All In most frequently bought with it. And that sticks on average for a month or two.
And what my conclusion is, is I, as a consumer of books, when I buy a book, I will look at that buy box and say, what else is popular with it? And sometimes if I'm so compelled on the topic, I buy all three. So it continues on this link. This episode is going to be scratched because of that cough. I'm kidding.
So it's a really compelling strategy. Um, and there's a lot more I have for ongoing marketing. I just wish people would do it more. They abandoned it. They launched and abandoned.
AJ Harper: Yeah, I, Let's just talk about it. I mean, I wanted to talk about the life of the book I've shared on here before, a conversation I had with Hal Elrod, um, where I was asking him, you know, about his strategies, his self-published book, which eventually, he recently, last year, finally did the traditional published version of Miracle Morning, but he waited a long time and said no to a lot of offers. And then he finally did it. He self-published the book and sold how many copies did he sell?
Mike Michalowicz: Well over a million on his self-pub. I want to say approaching 1.5 to 2 million.
AJ Harper: Yeah. So I was talking with him and, you know, he was giving me the kind of standard stuff that I know. And he could kind of tell that I was, that I knew. And then he kind of got quiet and he said, you know, I just stuck with it for 10 years. I just stuck with it for 10 years, because that's the thing I want people to understand that there's a life of the book and We think the life of the book is shorter than we assume, that the life of the book is shorter than it actually is and if we stop dedicating ourselves to promoting it then obviously we're not going to get those kind of results. And then I think people don't understand what to do to promote because they just feel like they're doing the same thing over and over and it's not yielding results. So there's obvious, you need to have some sort of strategy, but first you need to understand that you gotta make a, I think authors need to make a minimum 10-year commitment to the book.
Mike Michalowicz: And why do you think minimum 10 years?
AJ Harper: Not just because Hal said that, but because, but because we need to think long term strategy about building readership, which is why we're talking about readership engagement strategies. And that is a process that can take years, and I think 10 is a good number, where maybe at that 10 year, you're going to need a second edition or, um, some sort of update potentially. So that might be a time where it would trigger something new. But yeah, I feel like you've got to think about how am I going to build this over time and what are my sales goals for 10 years, not the next six months.
Mike Michalowicz: Do you feel a book needs when you're in the writing process needs to be written with that understanding that this book has a evergreen component.
AJ Harper: Yes, we should never write a book with any other expectation than that it will be Mandatory reading and then it will be a classic.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: I mean look I said should never. Michael Port's always saying don't talk in absolutes and he's right. But I just feel like we shortchange ourselves when we say I'm just getting this little thing out. I personally think we should always write with the intention for it to become a classic.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, I 100 percent agree. You know, one little tip or technique we kind of use or I've heard is be very careful about referencing things that have a potentially a short time window. So if I say like, I
AJ Harper: Devices
Mike Michalowicz: devices, exactly. I'm using my, my new next, uh, Nextel phone. Well, you know, instantly next tells long gone or even like, instead of saying I did a Google search, it's probably more prudent.
Say I did an internet search because it has more likely of an evergreen life to it. Yeah. But there's certain books where you need. Specific, um, time stuff like, like maybe I'm writing a book on 2025 tax code.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: So--
AJ Harper: Well. That's obviously never going to be an evergreen book.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. So while does that something you, you have to plan iterations into, you're going to have a release as a 2026 and then a 2027.
AJ Harper: Yeah. It's a different type of book.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: That's a reference guide.
Mike Michalowicz: More of a reference guide, okay.
AJ Harper: Okay, but back to reader engagement strategies.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. So, what are some of the common mistakes authors make when it comes to not marketing? Or…
AJ Harper: I think that they end up, um, well, they don't anticipate the life of a book. If their launch is not giving them the results they want if they sold us fewer books than they thought they would they sort of take that as evidence from the universe that they shouldn't have bothered in the first place. Or maybe it's just not going to be a big seller. I'm just happy I sold to one person.
And all that nonsense.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And so then they don't really, they kind of wrongly take sales data to as a quality measure. Like, Oh, I didn't sell a lot cause people don't really want this.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: No, you didn't. I mean, of course that could be true. If you really didn't write a book with the reader in mind and you didn't Use quality standards to make sure you're putting the best book out there. Sure. That could be true that people are reading it and not telling people about it.
But most of the time it's a marketing thing. You know that people just don't know. They just don't know about it yet. So. You can't take that as evidence. You know, Dr. Sunita Sah, who I mentioned on the last episode. She hit the USA Today bestseller list.
She's my alum, one of my students. She wrote a book called, uh, Defy the Power of No in a World that Demands Yes. It is very of the moment right now. And it's based on her research. She's a professor at Cornell. And, but let me tell you, it hit this list not in the first week. What do we know about these lists?
Your best chance, right, is to get on the list the first week of publication because that's when they count the pre orders in addition to that week's sales. So that's your window. Hers was, it's six weeks later. Six weeks later.
Mike Michalowicz: Hmm.
AJ Harper: Because why people are reading it and telling other people about it because it's good. So can we just hang on and let people read? Yeah. So don't use the launch as evidence of anything.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. The launch really just points to how loud you were in marketing. Yes. Six weeks later, talks about how good the book is.
AJ Harper: That's it. Quote that. Put it in a freaking t shirt.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah, that's, um, I mean, then you know, but I see too many people in that sort of dip period where people are reading and they're maybe being quiet about it.
And so you think, oh, well, um, oh, um, you know, but just give them a minute.
Mike Michalowicz: I believe this is my own made-up numbers that when you sell a book, 10 percent of the audience will really deeply engage with it. If it's a bad book, they'll deeply engage and then say, not good. But if they fall in love with your book, that 10 percent becomes your new marketing arm.
So I sell a thousand books, a hundred people. If I wrote a phenomenal book in their perception, we'll start recommending it. And I think This is just my, again, my own numbers that a book will be recommended during that person's lifetime. A hundred times.
AJ Harper: Oh yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: But over their lifetime. So over say 25 years, I still refer back to E-Myth is a category defining book in the business space. That book's probably 30 or 40 years old now, maybe 30 years old. So I may influence a hundred sales but influence a hundred sales over 25 or 30 years, which means only about three more sales are happening per year from me as a result. So you got to write a phenomenal book, but you have to have this stick to it strategy.
The marketing is the, the reader who's never heard of you. And what you're trying to do is of course be service of service to them, but win over those people are going to go viral with it, who are going to spit it out over and over again to other people is my belief.
AJ Harper: Yeah, but I think the other mistake that authors make is that they don't really shift into new networks or cat or circles after the book is out.
So when we launch, we can take advantage of our full network and get it, get everybody riled up, get everybody buying, but then we just sort of stay in that same zone, which is putting stuff out on social media. Same people are seeing it. And there's a lack of engagement because they already saw it. We're not going into new circles.
We're not putting ourselves out there into places where people have never heard of us.
Mike Michalowicz: You know, one idea we had in our marketing, uh, meeting yesterday for the new book, uh, and how we're going to do this post launch marketing. Tell me if you. This idea resonates with you is if you're a reader of the book, we're going to invite you to go to your favorite small business, say an auto repair shop, place the book there with the permission of the owner, take a picture, but it's got to be the picture of the business and the book to say book has been planted.
Then what we're going to do is we're going to, we're gonna post on social media and invite other people. To go there. And if you take a picture next to the book and that business is in there, we're going to give you a reward of some type. We're going to give you bonus material, lost chapters, something that you couldn't get otherwise.
The idea is that the business owner is getting exposure. Uh, every single time. So they're motivated to keep the book sitting there. They're getting exposure. The book is just sitting there at a place you typically wouldn't see a book on personal finance, but you're sitting waiting, um, and people are motivated to go there.
So it's a little bit of drawing traffic to this business owner and getting pictures. So we're just playing around that idea. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's a post launch.
AJ Harper: But why with a personal finance book? That should be with the one of the business books.
Mike Michalowicz: Right. A business book makes sense. But what we were researching is where do people sit and wait? Wait, where's waiting times where you see stuff that's unexpected putting a book in a bookstore. You're one of tens thousands. If I put a book where you're about to spend money repairing a car because that's a necessity and I have a solution to how to handle that in the book
AJ Harper: Okay, I see that. I think sure I think that's cool. It is. Well, it is requiring people to do things. They honestly Most people would not want to--
Mike Michalowicz: Too out of the box, right? Maybe or two
AJ Harper: people wouldn't want to go ask that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: so I think
Mike Michalowicz: maybe too much effort. We were thinking about doing with the street team to plant these books.
AJ Harper: I think street teams cool because they're already super fans and they're willing to go above and beyond. But I'm talking about Circles where you're actively presenting, reaching out, cultivating relationships.
Mike Michalowicz: And I think what relationships do you have now that can bring you to the next level? So the other idea, which is, this is much simpler is we have relationships with entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs have employees, right?
So I'm going to and have gone and will during the launch, but for sure post launch to organization after organization saying, let's have a meeting with your employees about their personal finances.
AJ Harper: That's a no brainer. That's utilizing your existing network. Then I would say for that's good for launch. I would do all of that leading up to launch as well. But I think I would love to see you go even further out and think about, Okay, who's serving my community? That's what you really have to start with.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: So these are relationships you don't have yet. In terms of, you know, who's, who's struggling financially and who serves those people who are struggling financially.
Like, here's an example. Um, the community action association, they have one in every state. Uh, they were started by President Johnson and I used to work at one. That was my last straight job, by the way. And they. They represent all the community, uh, the community action agencies are usually where they have like a combo of services for people in the community, like maybe Head Start or a car buying program or Meals on Wheels, or they often have financial education.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: And reach out, get to know those people, see what you can See what you can do there. Often they have budgets for things like that. Um, I'd love to see you go in places you've
never been and reaching out to those groups. In addition to going deep in the relationships you have. But that's the thing about reader engagement and why we want a long-term plan.
You can't execute all of that at the same time.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, you're right. I have the propensity, many authors do, as you kind of build your wall. This is my tribe and you don't try to get into others. Tell me about relying too much on social media.
AJ Harper: Oh god. Don't get me going Who sees your 20 minutes left? Who sees yours? We don't we can end whenever we want!
Mike Michalowicz: No one's cracking the whip
AJ Harper: Um how who sees you on social media the same people who already bought your book?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: it's you know Yeah, you're gonna get people who follow you, but maybe they already followed you the new like the new people because they bought your book
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: so what good is this doing?
I'm not saying don't use social media, but it can't be an exclusive strategy. Mike Michalowicz: I'd invite you to definitely check out TikTok. That is our mover. Okay.
AJ Harper: Well, as that's different, I'm talking about, okay, let me qualify. Like just these static graphic posts. Do you know what I mean? Here's a quote from my book. Here's this endorsement I got from my book. Happy anniversary to my book. Please review my book. You know? Yeah. You can see how excited I am about it.
Mike Michalowicz: I can feel it.
AJ Harper: Look, you can still do all that stuff, but when I see that there's nothing else happening, then you're just, you're just repeating yourself to the same network. TikTok, YouTube, I would argue even Substack. Now we're engaging. Now we're finding new people because we're having to create content that's around the topic.
Mike Michalowicz: I think a good strategy is to what is your best format of delivering content beyond the book? Are you great on podcasts? Are you great at writing articles? Are you great speaking on stage?
For me, my biggest strength is probably on stage. So what's interesting is with Tik Tok, we've created what we call Tik Tokable videos where it's me talking to camera saying a tip, an idea, and we've done. Clips of me on stage and the ones of me on stage in clips performs the best by a mile. People just consume it. So what are you doing already that works? You can repurpose that content for online.
AJ Harper: Do you, do you, what are you noticing? Any more news on that? Mike Michalowicz: What do you mean?
AJ Harper: Are you still seeing growth with tick tock?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. You know, we tried boosting, so you can do this thing called boosting of posts and we think we found something. So we were doing a regular boost, like once a week, Andrea on a marketing. She's our marketing lead. Would say, you know, we'll spend 50 bucks here or 100 bucks there. And your views would go from, we're getting like say 600 to 800 views typically on a TikTok video goes to like 5, 000. So then we're like, okay, let's boost with a thousand dollars.
And we had our, well, a successful video went from, um, with a thousand dollars, went to 350, 000 views. We saw a jump in book sales. So we can correlate it. When I say jump, it translated to about 50 book.
AJ Harper: Oh.
Mike Michalowicz: so $1, 000 to sell books. It's costing me $20 a book. AJ Harper: No,
Mike Michalowicz: Not worth it. Um, so there is a correlation and I don't remember what the exact number is, but we also found a negative correlation is that when we don't boost, the views are down compared to our contemporaries and who are, who we believe are not boosting.
And so some, some indications are that the TikTok algorithm measures how often you put money. They want money. So how often do you put money to the coffer? And if you're not, they compromise you, but if you don't put money in, they want incent you, so you get more views. There's, there's this weird, so don't do it ever.
Well, I may work against you too, like do it less often than once a week.
AJ Harper: Do you, do you realize what you're saying is. This is why people don't do this stuff because it's too much to think about.
Mike Michalowicz: it's too much to think about and we're just testing. I believe in the get different strategy And what it is is if you're paying for advertising and we dabble in it, it's the tax for not being different enough.
So we're, that's why we're having these ideas of like, how do we get into locations where you would never see a book, but it still gets your attention.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: We think at doctor's offices, there's all those magazines. Why isn't there a book sitting there? And maybe something on the cover saying, Hey, your doctor wants you to be healthy, not just physically, but also financially. Enjoy the read while you wait.
Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah. All right.
AJ Harper: I'm sorry. It was just imagining sitting in a waiting room and if I wanted I'm not a good judge for that though because I want to sit there and not read a single word and wait my turn, but that's just because all I do is read.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Oh, yeah It's just not a good measure It's gotta be tested. But this actually points to another counterpoint is this concept of throwing spaghetti against the wall I'm gonna try this for today. I'm gonna try that for today and that can be a nail in the coffin
AJ Harper: Yeah, because then you start, it starts being really frustrating and, uh, sometimes expensive. And then every time it doesn't work, just becomes greater confirmation that probably it's not going to work.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And so you just quit.
Mike Michalowicz: I think a lot of people don't back it with the numbers either. They're not measuring.
AJ Harper: They're not measuring. That's another huge mistake.
Mike Michalowicz: We are maniacal about measuring. So we have, we call it Monday's metrics. Every Monday we sit down, we go over all of our sales metrics. And Andrea, Adayla, even for this show, we track the numbers. So we know exactly what episode works. We're trying to figure out what's the right length of time.
AJ Harper: You know, we never get that info.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, we can provide it.
AJ Harper: How do I get it?
Mike Michalowicz: Have Sade ask, uh, Erin, I just want to get the, the info and we can just copy the spreadsheet and send it to you.
AJ Harper: Great.
Mike Michalowicz: So you can see downloads, everything.
AJ Harper: We would love it.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Good. Um, other things that.
AJ Harper: What do you, do you see any, by the way, I'm just putting you on the spot. (Yeah.) Do you know, like, have you seen any improvement in this podcast?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, overall, we're arching to more and more listenership. The last post election, we've been actually been down a little bit. I'm not, I'm not, do not correlate.
AJ Harper: Yeah, I don't, I don't correlate anything. I feel like it's just a hard time for anybody to be focused on anything.
Mike Michalowicz: Right, right. There's a lot of change going on. So, um, maybe that's it, but who knows? (Who knows?) Um, and then, this is not surprising. Our first couple episodes are our highest performing. They've been around the longest. So people, you know, will binge.
Um, but we, we'll have to look at the data together.
AJ Harper: Okay. I'm curious.
Mike Michalowicz: But we now have an advertiser, uh, network that's, I was telling you off air that's curious about our show. Um, so I got to send the data over to them. So we talked about what doesn't work, um, ideas on what does work.
AJ Harper: Yeah. Like I said, I, I think everybody needs to make a list of where can they go that they haven't been before to work to connect with people who have access to your audience, um, who also serve your audience. So start, start moving out your circles, go completely into different spaces where you don't know anyone and get that going. Yeah. And do classes or a webinar or do something for them to get to know you. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Who, who was it? We've brought them up before. Was it the Traveling Pants book? Uh, The Sisterhood? I can't remember the title. Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants? Does that sound right? I mean,
AJ Harper: that is a book, but what we're
Mike Michalowicz: Okay, so there was an author who went to book club after book club after book club. They, they did a tour for one year.
AJ Harper: Was, did that author do it?
Mike Michalowicz: I think it was.
AJ Harper: Oh, I don't know that story.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, okay. I think it was that author, I don't remember the person's name, traveled to people's homes and said, just get 15 people together and I'm going to tell you about this book and read from it and so forth, and did it for one year straight.
AJ Harper: I mean, that's hardcore, but respect, man. We got to do stuff like that. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah, you can't give up on it.
Mike Michalowicz: Do not give up on it. If you, it's interesting, uh, cause last night. It came up again is someone said I put so much effort into writing the book I now realize I have to put ten times that effort into the marketing of the book.
AJ Harper: They don't really want to do it
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, but you really this is a mission, the book. The book is your manifest. Yeah,
AJ Harper: you said that last night. Yeah,
Mike Michalowicz: you just
AJ Harper: But you know, um, it's hard for most people, Mike. It's really really hard. What I said last night is I think it's so confronting It's,
Mike Michalowicz: I guess
AJ Harper: you're just, you're just made of something else.
Mike Michalowicz: I guess. I just get so I get like angry that the world's a certain way. And I know this is, this is the way I can change it back to how I think it needs to be.
AJ Harper: Yeah. Most authors are alone when they write and they're alone when they market.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And it's pretty easy for inner critic trolls to wheedle their way in and keep you from doing what you need to do. I think a really good solution is to be in community with other authors, that you can see what they're doing and you can get support. It's hard to do this stuff on your own.
Mike Michalowicz: You know who wrote a great book is Tatiana. She was sitting across from you to the side.
AJ Harper: Yes. And she also passed out a little tax.
Mike Michalowicz: I couldn't leave the restaurant with a thing I did. So she has a little promotion that's a medicine bottle. And it looks legit.
AJ Harper: Yeah, take two.
Mike Michalowicz: Take two, so I'm walking around, holding this in my hand, like I'm, I'm hooked to my medicine.
AJ Harper: No one's thinking that.
Mike Michalowicz: But I, I felt that way. So I'm like, I gotta hide this in my back pocket. It was bizarre. Um, but it was a good marketing piece. When we went around and, um, Jessie goes, what's your day job? I was, in my heart, praying. Everyone's like, I'm a freaking author.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: And Tatiana didn't say that. She's, I'm an accountant. Um, the person's right. Say, Oh, I also, everyone had something else besides author. So then I, and it was in part to make a statement, but it's also my feeling. I said, I'm my day job is I'm an author. My night job is an author and my weekend job is I'm an author. And I think in Tatiana's case, she has such a good book. It's so important that people read this. But it's playing second fiddle, the promotion and marketing is playing second fiddle to her pay job.
AJ Harper: Incidentally, that book, by the way, is Dream Bold Start Smart. Mike Michalowicz: Oh yeah, pick it up, it's on Amazon right now.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Um, so I think there, one thing that works well is the stick to it ness. Regardless of the approach, it's just do it over and over and over again.
AJ Harper: Look, and not everybody can do what you're doing. I'm an author 24/7. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: You made that commitment. Some people have to do their job, they have a business to run. For sure. It's just what's happening. So, when you're talking reader engagement strategies, just do, set up some sort of consistent, this is where the strategy comes in. Don't throw spaghetti at the wall.
Really think about it, track everything and then give yourself a doable plan where you can continue to stoke the fire because you have to continue to stoke it.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, agreed.
AJ Harper: I think an easy way are challenges. Now, I don't know if you remember this ‘cause I didn't hear you talk about this when you were talking to Felicia about marketing, but on a previous episode, I encourage you to do a challenge. I think people can do them regularly as ongoing reader engagement is to continue to do little challenges to get more people reading, do them for free or extremely low cost. And if your book lends itself to that type of thing, the new book you have coming out totally does. Keep it super simple, keep it a
short time frame, um, make it free, give them some juice and just get yourself on a revolving schedule of challenges.
Mike Michalowicz: I like that. I like that. I think there's a very clear before and after in the challenge that we would pose.
AJ Harper: if you can get people to do it and you can get people to actually experience change. Now you have people who are recommending the book all the time. And if you do it on a regular basis, this is really can be really effective.
I think that's one.
Mike Michalowicz: I like that a lot. I'm just writing something down about that.
AJ Harper: Speaking engagements and they can be any, you don't have to get on a stage. It could be virtual.
Mike Michalowicz: Well, mhm.
AJ Harper: Um, I think we have to do it, and especially now, we have to show up, our face, go in person as much as we possibly can.
Um, people need that, they crave it, and it's also a trust factor. You know, when they see you and interact with you, they experience you.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. For me, speaking is, is a really interesting, well, I'll go to Profit First. What's interesting is it re engages and reactivates past readers if they show up and it engages new readers.
So it's a great ongoing marketing strategy. So I'll do an event and, and people will come to me afterwards and say, Oh, I've read your book, but I wasn't doing it ‘cause I didn't get it. Something was missing and now I want to, now I'm motivated to do it or I understand something.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Um, so you get that You get new readers say, Oh, I never heard of this concept. Never. Now I'm diving in. You also get testimonials. Um, but at least for me, that took some time. The book had to be in a circulation enough, but I'll do a speaking engagement, and a portion of the audience will have read the book, be already doing it and have some degree of of significant success and they will testify to it.
So they'll raise their hands, say, I'm doing Profit First. And I'll say, well, what's the results? And they'll, it's live. I don't know this person.
AJ Harper: That’s awesome.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And I think that's the ultimate engagement. Very hard with large audiences, but the typical audience for me. I mean, this is a large audience.
My average audience is 250 people. A large audience would be a thousand or more. Um, but sometimes they audiences of like 30 or 40 people. And those are the best audiences because then the testimonial, the person can stand up, the whole audience can hear them. Um, there's
more engagement in smaller audiences. So it really works with small audiences. Uh, newsletter is another way.
AJ Harper: Yeah, I think for this year and next year, there's still going to be a really good way for you to engage with readership and keep providing value, especially if you're doing it on a platform that allows you to be engaging. Um, I think that's actually a really cool thing.
They're back and I think they're going to stay back for a little while.
Mike Michalowicz: The newsletter. Yeah, we, we've gone. To a very simplified format, uh, it's a little bit James Clear ish where it's just bullet points very actionable. And so we had, uh, these long articles that we were sending out to people and now we're doing shorter ones and we find that there's, it looks like there's more engagement, more reader response, people replying back to us saying, oh, great idea.
So we're consolidating detailed information down to two or three just actual lines. AJ Harper: Mm hmm.
Mike Michalowicz: And that seems to be landing better. I'm not saying that is the format for everyone.
AJ Harper: No, I see why it works for you.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And, uh, we're doing it every, we're doing on a consistent day, consistent time. So every Monday at three o'clock or something, it hits.
That was something we didn't do in the past. And we find that's serving us better too. Is that regularity yours comes out on…?
AJ Harper: on Fridays. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Yeah. I get it. And there it is. I'm almost anticipating it now. Um, I think the media opportunities never die.
AJ Harper: Yeah, you got to keep seeking them out.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, you can become, uh, an expert for a television show. So, you can submit to a news station, for example. I have expertise on such and such. I'm the, my credibility is I've written a book on this topic. And, and put kind of yourself in the queue. There's a person called the show runner or the booker. Those are the people that you want to reach out to for a show.
Um, But you may get buried when a topic hits. So something goes down in your town. Um, uh, there's a, there's, I don't know, some kind of collusion happening in the mayor's office. If you are an expert on, um, dynamics of negotiations, you can come in and pitch to the station saying, um, Um, there's this collusion going in the mayor's office.
I've expertise on human negotiation. I can tell you what the next three things are going to happen and diagnose probably what did happen. So you arm them with the story and your expertise and the uptake on stuff like that is good. You just have to be on top of the news.
AJ Harper: You have to meet the moment.
Mike Michalowicz: Meet the moment.
That's good.
AJ Harper: It's like the Dr. Sah DEFY right now. She's meeting the moment. She just had an article in the LA Times. People are looking for how do I defy? How do I not comply? In a way that makes sense. And she's the authority on it. ‘Cause it's her research.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: So it's right now, right now is this in, at least in this country, this is a top.
She can speak authoritatively, say, this is what's going on. This is how we defy. And this is how we don't comply. This is why we comply in advance. This is why we comply in the moment and how to change that really powerful stuff. She didn't time it that way with her book release, but which came out in January, but it was kind of perfect timing.
And, and sometimes the moment comes later, it might not be at release and that is how a book becomes lightning in a bottle is when you have a great book with good marketing and then the world lines up, whatever happens the events line up that everybody is ready for this right now.
Mike Michalowicz: It's called surge
AJ Harper: Well, okay, I thought you meant the book Surge, which is the antithesis of that.
Mike Michalowicz: But the book is catching the momentum of the market, you know, hitting it, the shift. There's no more powerful marketing force in the world than the natural tendency of the market itself.
AJ Harper: Yeah. And so, but you can also, you know, align yourself with media opportunities based on, you know, it's, um, Mother's Day. It's exactly graduation time. It's there's always a fresh story
Mike Michalowicz: Every day and so many stories last very for a very short period. There was that horrific murder by Luigi. I can't remember. Uh, you know what I'm talking about?
AJ Harper: No.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, this is the guy who [editor: ALLEGEDLY] killed the, uh, CEO of the health care company.
AJ Harper: Oh, yes. Here in New York.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, it is here right in New York. It's horrible. And that story already is starting to kind of disappear. Like it's not, it's not front headline news. It'll come back when the trial happens. So it goes in waves.
AJ Harper: Right. But any expert on healthcare reform, right. Mental health… Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: All have opportunities. So catch the news. They're called human interest stories. So don't pitch your book, pitch the story. That's of human interest.
AJ Harper: You can talk about this, this story because you're an expert. Mike Michalowicz: Exactly. That's how you do it.
AJ Harper: You're not talking about the book.
Mike Michalowicz: That's how you do it. I think one thing to also do is just constantly seek out the new authors in the space that you're in and support them in their launch, which integrates you as part of their storyline and it keeps you live,
AJ Harper: Be in conversation with them.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And whatever category you're in, don't see yourself as category exclusive. Like I'm the only book in this category. You're part of that category. My argument
that I make regularly is if someone falls in love with the concept of a more profitable business and they read, for example, Profit First, I doubt they say, Oh, I've got it all done.
It's like, this is working and serving me. What else can I learn? And they start researching and discovering other books in that category. When you love something you read and consume more of it. When it's of service to you, you want more of it. I got a thousand guitar books. I got a thousand books on marketing because it's an interest to me.
So we as authors have to build this collaborative market with other authors that are in the exact same space doing the exact same thing because a reader who falls in love with a subject will consume all of it.
AJ Harper: Yeah. So you
Mike Michalowicz: want to be in that circle.
AJ Harper: I love that new books coming out. That's your opportunity to, first of all, remember what it was like. It's going to be lovely for a new author to hear from you and say, Hey, I hear you. I see you have a book coming out. How can I support you in this launch? Let's, let's do a LinkedIn live. Let's do a panel discussion. Let's do, um, let's do a webinar together. How can I, um, help you? You, first of all, you have an author friend for life then, because they're having to reach, they've been doing all the reaching out.
If there's a new, if there's an author who's launching, all they've been doing is asking. So if they get an inbound, how can I help?
Mike Michalowicz: It's, yeah.
AJ Harper: Whole, whole different story. Now you're building your community, but more importantly, you're keeping your book alive, too.
Mike Michalowicz: Exactly right.
AJ Harper: Well, not more importantly, and you're keeping your book alive. Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ Harper: I love that, Mike. That's good. I like that to keep in new authors coming out.
Mike Michalowicz: New authors coming out. I don't believe all authors have that mentality. There are the, the, I think half the author market will say our community is abundance support others. And then there's the other ones that are scarcity.
And I just believe that abundance mentality. I can't think of any other industry in the world. That works like this. When I, when I had my computer technology business, either I got the job or my competitor got the job. But as an author, if you get the sale, I have a higher likelihood of getting a sale if your book crushes it and it serves them.
So help other authors make amazing books in your category and promote the hell out of them and you win.
AJ Harper: Yeah. I love that. But, uh, you know, coming back to it, it's never too late. So, you know, if you have a book that's a few years old and you're thinking, ah, I missed all these opportunities. You can start today. Absolutely. If there's nothing stopping you, you just please have a strategy.
Mike Michalowicz: Do you know, um, It's a movie reference, but I think they run in parallel. It's a Wonderful Life. That movie, it was,
AJ Harper: I thought you were going to say like Caddyshack,
Mike Michalowicz: which is up there. It's a wonderful life was a flop.
AJ Harper: Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: In the market for, and I think it was a flop for five or 10 years. Like it was a long period and it was given up on, but it was entered the public domain and some stations to start broadcasting because it costs them nothing to broadcast it. And it took off, it’s a freaking—
AJ Harper: I can quote most of it.
Mike Michalowicz: It's such a good movie.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: So just because your book isn't a hit out of, of the gate or even year one or even year five or 10, just keep going, just keep going.
AJ Harper: Keep going.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you have a five-year plan.
AJ Harper: I recommend a five-year plan. So I think you should have the think about it like at least 10 years, but it's hard to conceptualize 10 years out, you know, so get some sort of loose overview of a five-year plan because again, you can't do all these things at the same time.
Even if you have a big team, it's hard to do that and then do the next two quarters. What am I going to do for the next two quarters? And then think about how you can get some of that to be on automatic if it's working. So if you measure, okay, TikTok's going great. Or, uh, these little webinars, that's the way to do it.
Or book clubs, this is working for me. Or continuing to push podcasts, I can see growth there. Then can you, how can you automate getting more podcasts? How can you get into a system and rhythm with book clubs? And get an assistant if you don't have a team. You can easily get just a an admin to help you once you figure out how to do it and get that on a rotation so that it's just happening regularly. And then make a plan for two quarters and then assess what and then change the next two quarters.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: That's, you know, it's too hard to conceptualize the full 10 years. So make a loose five year and then a detailed two months out. I'm sorry, two quarters out.
Mike Michalowicz: I wonder with a book, if there's a, I'm sure you, of course you can, you can survey the audience after the books out there. I wonder if you can find what the impedances are too, like what's working and not working in your marketing.
I just have a thought with Get Different. Um, I, I really think that title is not the right title and I think get noticed. And I don't know how it would work with a traditional publisher and trying to get a new title in the exact same book.
AJ Harper: I mean, you can ask,
Mike Michalowicz: you can ask, but first I want to test the audience to see. They say if we just flip the title to get noticed,
AJ Harper: but what if you didn't? Oh, hang on What if you didn't actually flip it? What if you just started “get noticed” as a concept?
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's interesting
AJ Harper: and get noticed .com and get noticed program.
Mike Michalowicz: That's a great way to test it
AJ Harper: The get different book is part of it
Mike Michalowicz: Hmm,
AJ Harper: So then you don't have to, cause it's, it's a big deal to change the title, but what if you just said, F it, I'm just going to be, I'm going to launch it as get notice without changing the title.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh gosh. Good food for thought.
AJ Harper: Give it, give it a shot.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. I really like that.
AJ Harper: Yeah, I do too. I like that. You know, we may never earn that advance out. We, you might be able to,
Mike Michalowicz: yeah.
AJ Harper: Wouldn't that be nice and satisfying?
Mike Michalowicz: Wouldn't that? Yeah. I, because it, it is such a good book. I'm so proud of that one.
AJ Harper: Yeah, I am too. And I, uh, it's, but it, it is it that book, part of the, one of the things is, is confronting.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And it's the same with what we're talking about with reader engagement strategies. You're just putting yourself out there all the time.
Mike Michalowicz: It's, it's these authors in that room in the salon yesterday, I'm like, you got to get noticed and it's like, I know, but I'm, I want to stand out without standing out. I want to be noticed without being noticeable. It's always that,
AJ Harper: yeah, it's hard when something comes naturally to you.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: You know, which it does for you.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Anything else on this subject before we wrap it?
AJ Harper: Don't give up on your book.
Mike Michalowicz: Damn straight. Next episode is the power of inclusivity making readers feel welcome. So make sure you join us next week. Go to our website. It's dwtbpodcast. com. We have a lot of materials up there. I think it's a lot from AJ's work. And if you're not familiar with AJ's work, please go to ajharper. com. Have you sold out the editorial thing? Is there any slots left? Can people see?
AJ Harper: Are you talking about retreats?
Mike Michalowicz: The retreat, yeah.
AJ Harper: I think I have one,
Mike Michalowicz: okay,
AJ Harper: I just had someone have to cancel for personal reasons, so I might have to, okay, summer, but then sold out for the summer after that.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay, so, okay, so,
AJ Harper: so, um, there's three this summer. June is completely sold out. And then I can't remember if it's July or August where I have a spot.
So you might, when I, but when this airs, it may be over. So I don't know. Can I say one thing I forgot to say? Um, that reader engagement strategies, that's the third part of this three-part series I'm doing for my membership and it's exclusive to them. So I'm doing these deep dives. I'm not trying to sell it like as a come to this marketing.
I'm just trying to do it for my members. So they're educated. And they are thinking about it, but people can join the membership anytime to have access to these classes. So I just wanted to put a little plug in and you can go to ajharper. com. It's a top three authors membership and it's, um, ridiculously good deal.
Mike Michalowicz: It totally is. We had, this is a true story, an editor, I won't say their name, where you and I did a call together and she was noticeably shaking and I'm like, so my ego's like, huh. Uh, that just, it's just me, Mike, and she's like, no, no, no,
AJ Harper: not AJ Harper's
Mike Michalowicz: on this call.
AJ Harper: She actually didn't introduce herself to me.
Mike Michalowicz: She was like,
AJ Harper: Do you remember? She, like, we all went around and Yeah. She didn't, she didn't say Hello, hello? Something she was so nervous to meet. You said she admitted it. She said, I was nervous to say anything to you.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. That's the esteem you have in these, in this industry. If you are an author or aspiring author, I'm telling you, this is a once in a millennial moonshot that you get to work with AJ.
So go to ajharper. com. There's one spot left. Um, if you have any questions, comments for us, you can email us at hello at DWTBpodcast. com. We want your feedback too. Tell us you're going to come to our live show if we're going to do it. Thanks for joining us today. And as always, a great reminder, don't write that book, write the greatest book you can.