Surprise! We have a very special bonus episode for you today. In this bonus episode, we interview debut Author Brian Herriot on crafting Time Freedom. The trio discuss creating a legacy that lasts and the commitment that comes with writing a book. Tune in to catch a complete breakdown of how Brian started with an idea and ended with a bestseller and continued marketing after launch. This is an episode you do not want to miss!
Surprise! We have a very special bonus episode for you today. In this bonus episode, we interview debut Author Brian Herriot on crafting Time Freedom. The trio discuss creating a legacy that lasts and the commitment that comes with writing a book.
Tune in to catch a complete breakdown of how Brian started with an idea and ended with a bestseller and continued marketing after launch. This is an episode you do not want to miss!
Be sure to visit https://dwtbpodcast.com for more information and add your name to start receiving their newsletter. If you’d like to support this show, rate, subscribe, and leave a review on your podcast app.
Mike Michalowicz (00:00.152)
Does that make sense?
Brian Herriot (00:01.682)
I have stuff I have stuff that I like about you guys that I can share. Sure. Yeah. Okay. All right.
Mike Michalowicz (00:04.786)
then okay, then you're definitely
AJ Harper (00:05.244)
you want to contribute to the what do we admire? Okay. Then you're in.
Mike Michalowicz (00:09.068)
Okay, then then you're in then you're in from the get go.
So this is the shocker of shocks. We are live already. And our first ever, first ever guest is gonna be joining us, Brian Harriet. I was AJ before before we're starting this, I said, Hey Brian, if you have a few words you want to say during our pre Mike Michalowiczter banter, you're welcome to do it. He's like, I have a few kind words to say about you guys. So I'm like, Brian, you're gonna do all the talking. You run the entire show now. so so Brian, welcome. It's great to have you here.
AJ Harper (00:33.884)
Ha ha.
Brian Herriot (00:37.392)
Ha ha.
Brian Herriot (00:41.67)
Thank you very much. What an honor.
Mike Michalowicz (00:44.108)
So let me kick things off here. today we're gonna talk about the craft of becoming an author. Is it it's a deep dive into Brian Harriet's experience. He's the author of Time Freedom. AJ, you're checking in from the island. This is the last episode before you head home. W when are you heading back out to come to New York?
AJ Harper (01:02.198)
God willing, it will be in two days.
Mike Michalowicz (01:06.24)
Okay. And you
AJ Harper (01:07.486)
I was so just I was supposed to be gone. The reason that I'm saying this is because I have a lot of people who read my newsletter, which comes out on every Friday, and they also listen to this podcast. And I sent a newsletter that said, I'm on my way home, but that's because something happened the day I was supposed to leave and we haven't been able to leave. But now we're going home for real. So I just wanna I don't want people to think I was fibbing when I said we were going home. We were. And the delay.
Mike Michalowicz (01:32.406)
You were and then the world had different plans.
AJ Harper (01:35.956)
The world had different plans, but now hopefully in a couple days.
Mike Michalowicz (01:38.958)
And it's you Polly and the pooch as is running with you.
AJ Harper (01:42.656)
Greeley and also Polly's friend Drew, who is one of those van life people. So she works, goes to school, all of it, and ha has one of those souped up vans. And then she has a dog Bodie. And so we're all caravanning back to New York.
Mike Michalowicz (02:00.524)
That is one of the best ways to travel is in a caravan because what I found is when I travel that way, with some friends and so forth, you take more breaks on the way, which is very healthy. Stop the rest stop, you stretch out, you talk. Sometimes people switch cars. But the coolest thing we ever did, AJ, is we brought walkie talkies with our us. And so we had a a caravan, I think I think four or five cars and everyone had a walkie talkie and just the the the fun banter you ha have the whole way going.
AJ Harper (02:20.902)
Ha ha.
AJ Harper (02:26.815)
That's fun. That's fun.
Mike Michalowicz (02:30.238)
this episode, told you we're gonna be doing a deep dive. I first wanna acknowledge AJ and Brian, this is where we're gonna bring you in. I wanna acknowledge you too. AJ, I I love that you support authors so deeply that you're really invested in their success more than just technically, but empathetically. And I saw that with your journey with Brian, and just wanted to acknowledge that in you.
AJ Harper (02:53.865)
thank you. on the same token, I think you are you were like an author person. Like if someone's an author, no Mike Michalowiczter if they're brand new, no one's heard of them, you just you are so supportive emotionally as well. Maybe you're, you know, I'm not talking about people don't hit up Mike for more endorsements. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just if you meet a person just in everyday life and they say you're an they're an author, you're so excited for them. So
Mike Michalowicz (03:12.609)
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (03:20.766)
And Brian, I wanna acknowledge you, brother. you truly care about the craft of authorship. And with this book, Time Freedom, you devoted yourself to writing the best book possible. So much so that in the first time in my experience with authors, that I saw a publisher, in this case page two, say, Hey, we wanna move you to the imprint. We wanna move you kind of up the feeding chain, if you will, of authorship because of your devotion to making such a quality book. So
That's that's a rare talent, man, and I just wanted to acknowledge that in you.
Brian Herriot (03:54.813)
Thank you so much. Wow. And I I think I only learned that through working with both of you. To to even do that. To even do that.
AJ Harper (03:59.84)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Michalowicz (04:00.261)
AJ Harper (04:02.165)
Can I just add what I admire about Brian? So Brian, Brian came to was a is an alum of my workshop, but also came to editing retreat kind of at the same time, really similar timing, which is unusual and showed I was like, Are you sure? Are you sure you want to do both things? He said, Well, sure. But when he was here at retreat, just in the room that's right outside my door.
Mike Michalowicz (04:05.112)
Yeah. yeah.
AJ Harper (04:29.321)
He spent a lot of time really thinking about the readers who might not have means and how he could really address it for people who weren't in the same position Brian's in, to be able to get time freedom, to be able to get better financial situation for themselves, just no Mike Michalowiczter where they are in their life. And just watching him think about how can I do that and how can I make this more available for people.
who aren't in my position, tell me what kind of person he is.
Brian Herriot (05:00.946)
And the book completely changed because of that experience on the island w with regard to that. I know I have s I have call outs in the book specifically for people starting I call it starting out or starting again. Not starting over. I remember we consciously talked about that.
but let me tell you what I love about you guys. So I looked back to see when I first met you. And the email that I sent Adela with Penned with Purpose was February 4th, 2024. And I also joined your program, the Get Ready to Write a Must Read, I think, AJ, in February of 2024. So in two years and eight months, I have a million things that I could say about you both. but I would highlight just the single one is for you, AJ.
is I was it would be the word excellence. And sometimes you meet people that can do things that make it look so easy, but it's only because of the of the work that's been done over the many years. And my gosh, like what you bring to the table is amazing. And and the breakthroughs that I've seen, not only with my own experience, but in the community and in the group settings we're in where people are like, my God, it's a breakthrough. It it's it's so cool to see and it's it's because of your excellence.
AJ Harper (06:10.782)
Thanks, Brian.
Brian Herriot (06:12.492)
and and Mike, yours would be, I would call it selfless support. So whatever I asked about or needed or introductions or can we do this new thing? You're like, yes, let's do it. I'm I'm behind you 100%. How can I help you? You know, I don't care if I get anything out of it. I don't need to get anything out of it. I just want you to be successful. And I'm so appreciative of that.
Mike Michalowicz (06:38.59)
that means the world to me. And Brian, you passed the ultiMike Michalowicze McAllotest when when you and I were down in Austin and we went for a little ride for about 45 minutes. And the profanity I was dropping on everybody, and the fact that you're laughing and participating and sharing, and that was just a a blast.
Brian Herriot (06:52.946)
What's the
AJ Harper (06:58.89)
Wait, Brian was participating in profanity? This doesn't this doesn't this does not sound like Brian.
Mike Michalowicz (07:02.154)
Extreme, extreme profanity.
Brian Herriot (07:04.508)
Let's we we should set the record straight. I don't think I was. I don't know how you people remember things differently. I've learned that in writing a book.
Mike Michalowicz (07:13.396)
It was myself. Who was in the car? It was me, you, Scott Todd and Joey Coleman. I think it was Joey Coleman, was it? Yeah.
Brian Herriot (07:16.636)
Got Todd.
Brian Herriot (07:22.852)
Yeah. I think Scott Todd and I were sitting in the front going, this is interesting.
Mike Michalowicz (07:27.256)
So Scott Todd's driving, and I drop, I drop the worst word of all that you can imagine. And I'm like, Joey Coleman looks at me and goes, What'd you curse words? Most inappropriate. And Joey Coleman looks at and goes, What'd you say? I'm like, I said it because Scott Todd told me to say it. And Joey, Joey jumps on that like a tiger on raw prime rib. Like he jumps on and goes, Scott Todd, what's your problem? And Scott's like, I didn't say anything.
AJ Harper (07:36.278)
Curse word. You mean curse word?
Brian Herriot (07:38.15)
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Mike Michalowicz (07:56.525)
And then Joey Coleman calls them the same word, saying, that's what you are for using that word. And I'm like, that's true. And then I start dropping it. And I swear, Brian, you threw a few of those words out there. I swear I felt it.
AJ Harper (08:07.743)
I don't believe you.
Brian Herriot (08:08.048)
It was it I it could I could never do that. It was you two in the back doing it and we're and Scott Todd and and Scott Todd and I looking at each other going, my goodness. No.
Mike Michalowicz (08:12.3)
Just relentless.
AJ Harper (08:16.075)
I'm pretty sure this is not a car I would want to be in.
Mike Michalowicz (08:16.507)
my god.
It was a 45 minute drive of this laughter and relentlessness. Joey Coleman's amazing. But you know, it it was there that we we kind of started structuring the plan for the launch of your book. I I thought for this sesh, AJ, that you would lead us in interviewing all the nuances of what Brian did to bring this book to life.
Brian Herriot (08:22.341)
No.
AJ Harper (08:41.29)
Yeah, and just just for our listeners, this is a bonus episode that we we wanted to highlight. We're doing three authors. just so we're clear. We just we just wanted to show because the book this this podcast is don't write that book. And so we wanted to highlight three people who didn't do that, who wrote the book they really needed to write and committed themselves to authorship and they all did it in in different ways. So just Brian's the first person that we're talking to about that.
Ryan, can you please share with us your book Fundamentals? And in our community and top three book workshop, this is something I say probably 50 times a day. Book Fundamentals is sort of like the GPS for your book. It's for whom are you writing the book? It's what is your transforMike Michalowiczional core message for that reader? And what is your promise to that reader, the promise of the book?
Brian Herriot (09:34.511)
Yeah, and it's something that you work on throughout until you finally get it. but I so I wrote a book for people who value freedom and flexibility, autonomy and agency, and they want more of it in their life. But they also don't wanna wait until they're rich or they're retired.
Mike Michalowicz (09:38.262)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (09:55.537)
So that is that's my focus. And the the core message of my book is that whereas most people think you need to create this big pile of money so that then you can take control of your time, I believe that you can find time freedom first and then let the money and the financial freedom happen in the background and second, ultiMike Michalowiczely.
And the promise is that I have a formula in which, you know, that and the frameworks that I teach that you can get there in three years. And what AJ was saying earlier about opening up the book to be accessible to all types, I also have a kind of a nuance in there, which is if you are starting out or starting again, I can probably get you there in 10 years. So it's that's my my promise to the reader. And at the end of the book, they'll have a plan to do just that.
AJ Harper (10:48.438)
So, but let's say when you were starting out, you didn't have those fundamentals. What was the initial what was the initial impetus for the book?
Brian Herriot (10:53.532)
No.
Brian Herriot (10:57.552)
The initial impetus for the book was that I had been pursuing this early retirement, like fast financial freedom for most of my life, thinking that that's what I wanted. I wanted to find this freedom and then I would never work again or I'd do whatever I wanted.
And life kept getting more expensive, not because I was like spending a bunch, but you know, you have a kid that learns differently, so he has to go to private school, then you end up moving to California and it's expensive. And then the market crashes in 2020 and all of your savings go down by thir thirty-five percent and you start to freak out a little bit. and so I I I remember telling Claire, because Claire is the true kind of brains behind the operation, as people in my life often say, but she she was like, Well, what does that mean?
to you if you were financially free and I'm like, well I'm gonna keep working. I just like working. I'm just gonna do it a little bit less. She's like, well why don't we do it now? And that was like the kind of the reframe which is like, you know, I is there a way that we can structure our life, the money, the work?
Mike Michalowicz (11:52.214)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (12:01.657)
in such a way that we can live as if, you know, we have this time freedom and then the money will take care of itself. Like it I mean that I say that I don't want to say that flippantly, like there's still work involved in that, but but to focus on the end goal first instead of assuming you have to do this big money thing first. And it was her idea. And we we we couldn't do it immediately, but we were able to figure out a way to do it in three years.
Mike Michalowicz (12:22.732)
I'd like to ask, what's it feel like to be bucking trends? Because I I'm so familiar with the term the the fire community, which I think stands for financial independence retire early. I think. Okay. Okay. It seems like that's the modus operandi for most people is grind it out for some future state. And maybe you can get there faster than most. But you're you're saying no no, regardless of your state, you can be there now. What's it feel like to be?
Brian Herriot (12:34.599)
You got it. That's right.
Mike Michalowicz (12:51.394)
Bucking the trend of what most people believe is the truth.
Brian Herriot (12:55.205)
Well, a couple comments there. One is first as part of good writing practice, I went and looked up the data and you know, which AJ has us do in one of the parts of the program. And I found Gallup data. I was curious like how many people actually do retire in their forties? Because that's the big push, right? Like we're gonna do this. And it was it was like one point five percent or something like that. So, you know, we're all pursuing this, but yet it really doesn't happen. And so I had that to kind of
reinforce my message, right? Like this is gonna work for people because the other one really isn't working. so that was my my my first point. And then second is just in the writing process, I remember AJ one of the sessions that we had where you're like, boy, you really have like
Mike Michalowicz (13:31.766)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (13:43.516)
Almost 10 unconventional ways of thinking about this really early. And readers are gonna be like, whoa, I don't know about this guy. This is too much. And I remember distinctly shifting the book to bring that forward and say, all right, these are the crazy ideas that I'm gonna tell you. These are the wild ideas that I'm gonna tell you. Let's
AJ Harper (13:57.014)
Bring that forward.
Brian Herriot (14:05.553)
you know, address the contradiction or you know excuse me. Let's re let's yeah, let's address them one by one and figure out how to to get people ready. That's it. Thank you. and so I got there early and then my idea was then by the time I get into it deeper later in the book, it'll be the second time they heard it and they'll be like, yeah, okay, maybe this is okay. So so I mean it it to to answer your question, Mike, it f it I mean it it's it's hard, but it's important. And so then you just have to figure out what's the right way to
AJ Harper (14:05.846)
Yeah, address the contradiction. The doubts and criticisms. Yeah.
AJ Harper (14:24.275)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (14:35.357)
present the message so that the person is ready, the reader is ready to hear it at the right time.
Mike Michalowicz (14:40.258)
A AJ, is that the technical technique is that when you're writing a book that's contrary to the general opinion of the public, that you gotta bring up those doubts and criticisms right away?
AJ Harper (14:51.51)
it is a technique that that can work. Yeah. You definitely need to get in front of it wherever it's placed in the book. But he had so many. He had so many th you know, and he's shattering all of these these beliefs that we have about money. And they need to be shattered before it can he can the people can move on. So it's different it's different for every book, but you definitely want to get in front of a reader's doubt or criticism of a concept so that you can answer what they're thinking in their head.
Mike Michalowicz (14:53.645)
Hm.
Mike Michalowicz (15:09.718)
Mm.
AJ Harper (15:20.704)
So that they don't that doesn't they don't fixate on the doubt. You've already got you're in front of it so that the wait, this person this read this author actually knows what I'm thinking is what they start to feel. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (15:31.746)
Gotcha.
Brian Herriot (15:35.089)
Like one example is I I'm if it's helpful to listeners, it I yeah, I say, really you don't want to retire early. What you wanna do is work forever.
AJ Harper (15:37.684)
Yeah, an example 'cause yeah. Yeah, I say really
Mike Michalowicz (15:46.574)
Yeah that's
AJ Harper (15:46.676)
I don't know was that's a big objection right there.
Brian Herriot (15:49.864)
Right, exactly. But the but the the nuance there is that if you can create this because people get so much out of work. Not n everyone's not in this situation, but for you know, many of my readers at least, they there are parts of their work they like. And if you can continue to navigate your work to something you like and make it flexible and, you know, make it in such a way that you can kind of take extended periods off and then come back to it.
Maybe you do want to work it forever. And then on top of that, what I've noticed is when you are comfortable saying, I like parts of my work, I do want to work forever, that's more freeing to me because now
I can take six months off and I don't feel like I'm getting behind because I have to meet this number in order to then retire. So it's like because I know I'm gonna go later, it's more freeing now, which is a little bit backwards, I I admit, but it's it's real. And so you know it's how do you present that message in the right way so people are ready to receive it?
AJ Harper (16:48.052)
Yeah, that's a perfect example, good example there. So I'm really curious, Brian. I mean, there's a lot of ways that you can go about, you know, writing a book. You can try and do it fast. You can hire somebody to do it for you. tell me why you because you know when you sign up to work with me, this is not the simple, fast way. This is
I don't call it I call it a gauntlet as but it 'cause it is. And I'm just wondering why you know, why did you say yes, sign me up for a gauntlet?
Brian Herriot (17:19.107)
I mean if you want to go a little bit deep here for a second, I mean the real reason here. So my wife has a chronic condition. it's it's the kind of the origin story of my ideas and and the thinking here in the book. And so we think a lot about legacy, like when you know, when we when we're when we've come and gone, like what's left? Like how do w I don't want people to forget me, you know, those sorts of things.
AJ Harper (17:23.07)
I do, yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (17:46.166)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (17:47.236)
And you know, short of creating a stone statue of us or something like that. I was we've been we talk about like, well, what what is long lasting? And a book is long lasting. And then your message in your book about the fact that a book is indeed forever, and you better put something out there that is the absolute best you could possibly put out there and something that you're so proud of. That message resonated. And so at that point, I knew I wanted to do that.
AJ Harper (18:09.578)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (18:14.865)
And honestly, I would have worked five years on it if I had to. You know, it for me it ended up being, you know, two years and eight months. I counted. I mean, because I went to those courses at the same time you work at the same time. but it's it still takes a long time. And so yeah, that that's I think you have to have a why behind you choose to do the things that you do. And this that was my why in this case.
AJ Harper (18:17.718)
Mm.
AJ Harper (18:22.368)
Pretty fast actually.
Mike Michalowicz (18:39.234)
What I love about a book is that it continues to provide service. You continue to be of service beyond yourself being a personally available. And I like that analogy of a statue versus a book. I I I've been in local communities where there's a statue recognizing someone and they're insignificant to me. So maybe I read the name and read the little epithet below their name, but it's not compelling to me. It's not someone that I associate with and the name's forgotten. But names like Napoleon Hill.
Dale Carnegie, these are people who've passed a long time ago. And I have a affinity toward them because of the service they're providing and have provided to me and continue to through their books. I I think it's the it's the ultiMike Michalowicze way to continue to participate in society even when we're physically gone.
Brian Herriot (19:26.655)
And and I've noticed you don't have to wait until you're physically gone to appreciate it either. Because this is something that surprised me a little bit. Like, I'm you know, again, like I probably did hundreds of things that I learned from the podcast and the books and things like that. But one of that I've modeled from you, Mike, was putting your email address in the book and telling people to email you. And I'm so glad that I did, because already I've gotten in just I
Mike Michalowicz (19:29.806)
That's the best. That's the best part.
Mike Michalowicz (19:47.966)
yeah, good.
Brian Herriot (19:53.852)
two two weeks and two days since it's been published, I've gotten four emails from people that have ingested it and made life they tell me they've made life changes because of the book, which is still hard to believe. I maybe I just pushed them pushed them a little bit, but my gosh, does that and I have no idea who these people are. Like it just feels so incredibly good. It's amazing. It's amazing. Everyone should do that. Put your email address in the book. Not everyone, but
AJ Harper (20:00.856)
And they like they tell me they've made life changes because of the book, which is still hard to believe. I maybe I just
Mike Michalowicz (20:14.599)
So happy you did that. I'm so happy you did that.
AJ Harper (20:19.701)
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (20:19.969)
Yeah.
You know, I noticed like I I've run into in my life now a few times a celebrity from television or the movies. And what I used to do is what I think most people do as have a sense of awe and this closeness, this halo effect, this closeness to a celebrity. But what's the reason behind that? It's because they've been of service. They've entertained me, they've entertained us. Maybe AJ was sharing, she's watching the British bacon.
Bake off right now. And it's giving her a a relief. You know, these these celebrities give us value. And so recently I ran into a few celebrities and I said, I want to say thank you for that character you played and what it did to entertain me or engage me or open my eyes to something. And that's what I think this email system does is you get actually get those people. Well, you know, you're walking down the street as an author, no one's gonna recognize you. Your your face isn't out there like it's in a movie.
It's in words. So they don't know who we are. They don't know what we look like. But this is a way for those fans to give the actual thank you. And for at least for me, and I'm Brian, I'm curious for you, is it's the ultiMike Michalowicze fuel to keep marketing the book.
Brian Herriot (21:36.894)
Yes. yes. Again, I I was just surprised how I would feel and I I
AJ Harper (21:43.786)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (21:46.14)
I mean, I've spent so much of my career helping businesses get better, large businesses get better. And there isn't that same personal connection or sense of accomplishment in that. And so it's this it's kind of new to me and I love it and I just want more of it. I hope it happens forever. And and I am hopeful because I tried my best to write a good book and so I do hope it does come forever.
AJ Harper (22:11.114)
I wanna ask you, Brian, about you know, one of the things that I talk well, the main thing I talk about is writing a book for someone, but it's it's this reader first methodology that we talk about here on the podcast. It's in my book, but you lived it and you understand that it is this touchstone that you use throughout the process. And I think we underst it sounds cool in the beginning and you intellectually understand it, but then there's a time when you f when it drops in and you realize.
what it really means. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your experience applying Reader First as you were writing and revising your book.
Brian Herriot (22:51.705)
well, for the first experience I had with reader was to just to determine who the reader was. So clarifying the reader statement in the set of fundamentals. And I remember I think my initial reader focus was pretty narrow. It was like you know, what you're not supposed to do, 40 year old, you know, in your 40s, middle career, white collar job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember a a conversation going, I think this is appealing to a broader
AJ Harper (23:10.954)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (23:20.647)
group, not everyone, but a a slightly broader group. And that's where we ch we adjusted the reader focus to be more about the value or the the the thing that the person wants. Like some because not, you know, some people are just happy doing their daily thing. And so that those aren't my readers, but some people do want this flexibility. and then I think where it really hit for me was and again you'll have to remind me of the name of the process, but where you
Go and look through the journey of the book itself. And so you think I'm a reader. And I touched on this just a little bit earlier, but like, what do I need at this point? You know, from the from the big concept of, you know, your page one desire versus what you then want at the end. That's at a high level, but even very granularly, like what are they ready for now? What are they ready for now? Now, now they need this is another one. I remember there's two spots in my book, just like I think there's two spots in your book.
AJ Harper (24:14.581)
Yeah.
Brian Herriot (24:20.573)
Where they need some encouragement. You know, and it's that whole journey. And I I I'm a big spreadsheet guy. And so I can remember mapping out, I've mapped out different things in the book, but that was one of them was like, what is this journey? And you know, almost like sub chapter by sub chapter, section by section. Yeah.
AJ Harper (24:22.11)
Yes.
AJ Harper (24:36.99)
Yeah. It's very meticulous, right? It's so what you're referring to is the progression of understanding, which is what I yeah. So that's the what's the flow of how are we unfolding the inforMike Michalowiczion in a way that meets the reader where they are and takes them on the journey toward adopting this new way of thinking. But along the way, what's happening to them, then what's the reader experience? So instead of just pushing out the knowledge, being aware of what's it like to receive the knowledge.
Especially if it's the first time you ever heard it. And what's it like to receive it knowing that they're not a geek for this stuff like you are? You know, I often use the example of Mike's book, Get Different, and Mike is a geek for marketing. And he will do just about anything, including humiliate himself to to get the word out about things. But the average person finds it very difficult to be seen and to put themselves out there.
Brian Herriot (25:13.202)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Michalowicz (25:26.35)
True story.
AJ Harper (25:35.934)
And so this is a, you know, Mike can't write a book, assuming everybody's like him. And so a lot of what you had to do was think, okay, I'm sharing this inforMike Michalowiczion. I'm a super geek for this. I get it. I understand it. I'm comfortable with these things. But what about the reader who's not? So it's first, first that progression of understanding and then going back over it and saying, okay, where do I need to add things? Because
receiving the inforMike Michalowiczion might be hard or challenging or confronting. And then that's how you keep a reader on the page. And what I love about what you did, Brian, is you were just like, yes. I mean you didn't you didn't hesitate when I said this is going to be more work. You're like, okay. And you made the book better because of it. But that that is that is the thing that makes a bo person email you and say, I implemented this. I tried this. Thank you so much.
Mike Michalowicz (26:30.04)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (26:32.252)
And and I can't not talk about then the early reader process, which is what I was so helpful for me. And and to this day, so I Veena Harvah, one of also in the community, had a book club yesterday and she did my book. And so we were people were reading from my book and and I can
AJ Harper (26:37.674)
Mike Michalowicz (26:37.71)
Mm.
AJ Harper (26:48.99)
Yeah.
Brian Herriot (26:56.166)
It was it was great because it was a section that I hadn't read recently and I'm like, I know which early readers suggested that line. I know which early reader had that part. Like, still I can remember specific names because there were, you know, 85 of them or whatever, which I went a little overboard. But again, like I just really wanted to make sure that people would receive it in the right way, like you were saying. And so what better way to know for sure than to actually give it to them and let them tell me.
Mike Michalowicz (27:02.443)
Mm.
AJ Harper (27:24.19)
And you use multiple methods. You used the method that Mike and I use, you also didn't you also use Rob Fitzpatrick's app?
Brian Herriot (27:32.69)
I did use that as the last version. Yeah it's called gosh.
AJ Harper (27:35.542)
What's that called again?
AJ Harper (27:41.022)
Yeah, well we'll put it in the show notes, but yeah, that's with the color coding mic. With the Yeah.
Brian Herriot (27:42.44)
Yes, yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (27:45.73)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the red, green and yellow. B Brian, when's the day or was there a day or moment when you had an identity shift to being an author?
Brian Herriot (27:59.473)
I well, yes. Well there were there were two. One was a conversation that I had in one of my one on ones with AJ, where you basically were like, I think you could be an author. And I remember thinking, Really? and so that's when I really started to think about it initially, which was pretty cool. and then there was a lot
in involved in it, but when I submitted the first manuscript, two page two, who who was my editor, that was like a big moment for me too. I and I made a video because I was just I was overwhelmed with emotion and I'm more of like a think with the head kind of person than the heart person. And but it was amazing.
Mike Michalowicz (28:39.47)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (28:45.62)
And at that point I I felt something too, like, this is a real thing. Like I've done something here. And what's funny in the video is I watched it again recently and I had no idea what was yet to come. In terms of all of the edits and rounds of edits and everything associated with it. But yeah, those are those are two two points.
AJ Harper (28:57.238)
yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (29:06.058)
And do you see yourself as a career author today? This is your full time endeavor. I know you have other things going on, but how do you identify today?
Brian Herriot (29:15.124)
I'm I I would s I would say it's like fifty-fifty. So yes, I do I do want to write another book. I have an idea for what that other book is. I have to live some more life in order to kind of fully prove it out. what I'd loved
Mike Michalowicz (29:19.117)
Okay.
Mike Michalowicz (29:28.259)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Brian Herriot (29:33.487)
so much about this book is it was rich with my personal stories and I chose to do it that way and it resonates with some people but I need some more personal stories to happen in order to write that next book. And also I need, you know, and the whole time freedom idea I need a some rest time here before I go go hard on that again.
Yeah, but I you know, as I'm sure you know, there's lots of other fun things to do in life too. And so I'm, you know, I I want to do those things as well.
AJ Harper (29:57.558)
Yeah, but I you know, as I'm sure you know there's lots of other fun things to do in life, so I'm I don't know how to do those things as well.
Mike Michalowicz (30:04.986)
AJ, I'm I'm curious, because you work with so many authors, do you see any consistent pattern when it comes to identification as an author? And just give context, with toilet paper entrepreneur, I kind of like Brian, I'm like, yeah, I wrote a book, but I have other things going on. It was at it was during the pumpkin plan that I'm like, I'm a career author and the I call it the Uber test. If I'm in an Uber and the driver turns around and says, Hey, what do you do? I instinctually say I'm an author.
And that that's my primary identifier. Do do you see a pattern, AJ, with authors?
AJ Harper (30:41.102)
well, you know, one of the things I do is I call them authors from the get. And it, you know, it's n this not a it's not something that you it's a choice. You have to make a choice to be an author. So I immediately start calling them that. I I think there's a difference between being an a person who wrote a book and a person who
Mike Michalowicz (30:45.205)
that's cool.
Mike Michalowicz (30:52.643)
Mm.
AJ Harper (31:06.133)
Steps into authorship and it's more than just the craft of writing the book, it's deciding that you're also going to make sure it gets into readers' hands. And you're going to also engage with those readers in some fashion. So if you think of the finishing the book and publishing it as the finish line, I don't think you're an author in the same way. If you think think of it as the beginning of a relationship with readers.
Mike Michalowicz (31:15.03)
Mm.
Mike Michalowicz (31:20.086)
Mm.
Mike Michalowicz (31:29.998)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (31:30.334)
What that
AJ Harper (31:34.794)
then I think that you're thinking of authorship in the right way.
Brian Herriot (31:38.366)
Then I am 100% an author because I have every intention of this is like my life for the next 10 years at least.
AJ Harper (31:40.611)
Ha ha ha.
AJ Harper (31:45.972)
And to the
Mike Michalowicz (31:45.998)
What does that mean? Like what are you doing?
Brian Herriot (31:48.659)
Well, so Kirby and so Kirby is my operations manager. She's been with me through this whole thing. So we have a meeting tomorrow. We're doing like a half day to kind of plan out what's next. And so on there are things like
you know, plan for Amazon reviews, plan for, you know, just all the next stage of marketing and everything that we can possibly be doing to get it in more readers' hands, and and what that looks like. So I don't know yet e everything, but it just but a whole bunch of new stuff. That and that that's been my favorite thing with this whole
author journey is that it's you learn something new at every stage. So if you don't like learning new things, then this probably isn't for you. But if you do, if you do, it's very new and interesting. And it's totally in line with time freedom and living an interesting life and doing different things. And that's why I think I was so attracted to it. It's that just when you get good at writing, then you have to get good at editing. And then when you get good at editing then you have to get good at marketing. And then when you get good at putting out a book then you have to get good at continuing to get the book in readers' hands.
Mike Michalowicz (32:32.514)
Ha ha.
Brian Herriot (32:55.314)
And so it's so that's why it it it is a long process, but if you enjoy the process that doesn't feel feel so long.
AJ Harper (33:03.166)
I was happy to see you in the mastermind yesterday for work for the sales and so I hope I see you at the next one.
Brian Herriot (33:10.93)
That yes, and that is a key component of what we're gonna do, like who we're targeting in Q four and q Q one of next year and Q two of next year. We have all that we'll have all that mapped out as well.
AJ Harper (33:21.342)
About craft, I wanna just ask, you know, one of the things that I personally love is to watch the evolution of an author coming in with one set of beliefs about their abilities to write things and then leaving workshop and it w it shifts. There's some what I what I usually say is at first they ask me, What should I do? And then by the end of the workshop they say, I think I should do this. Do you agree?
And so it's shifted from tell me what to do to I I think it's this. Is that right? And that's magic to me because that means you know now and you you've you've figured out what you need to do. so tell me what you know now. What do you know now about the craft of writing?
Brian Herriot (34:08.658)
Well, one thing I know, which I think is a continuation of what you were just saying, is that even then then the next step is to just go ahead and try it and it may be wrong and you may come back and kind of start over again. But that and that was one thing that I learned, which was huge for for me to learn, is when you come, especially if you're coming from a professional background in writing a book, like probably a lot of prescriptive nonfiction writers are, I was taught like you.
start and you move in a straight line upward and you get to your finish line and anything, any sort of rework is like wasted effort. And it's completely different in the creative process I've learned. I had no idea about that. No idea. None. None whatsoever. And the fact of trying out a couple of things that are that don't work, you still are learning and making it better as part of that process.
AJ Harper (34:48.746)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Michalowicz (34:52.686)
Hmm.
Brian Herriot (35:03.194)
And then all of a sudden you do hit a breakthrough and you move forward faster than you were if it was like a single steady, you know, upward slope. And that that was a huge breakthrough for me. And then and and knowing that then opened up the idea you were sharing, which is like, I can just try something because I think it's what what's supposed to happen. And maybe it wasn't. That's okay. I didn't, it's not wasted.
AJ Harper (35:28.894)
That's everything. You just you just on you understand the creative process now. If that's the my one wish going into any time teaching or mentoring and anything is to get authors to shift from the fear of is this right to in to shift out of intellectualizing the creative process into surrendering to the creative process, which means you don't decide if it's gonna work beforehand. You do it to see if it will work.
Mike Michalowicz (35:56.399)
That's so cool. It's like a it's a living in in experiment. It's a living, breathing experiment.
Brian Herriot (35:56.562)
And the minute
Brian Herriot (36:00.287)
Yes.
AJ Harper (36:01.044)
Yeah, and Brian's there now. So that's you'll always be w so you're gonna make cool stuff now, Brian. You're just gonna make cool stuff for the rest of your life because you're not afraid to see if maybe you could do it.
Brian Herriot (36:18.044)
Yeah, and another lesson that I took kind of along the in just in the in in the idea of thinking about creative work is something that Michael Port says in Heroic. And of course, listeners to the podcast will have heard you mention Michael and Amy many times. But he all he has always said when I went through that program, the thing that stuck with me is that there are there are performers or there are creators and there are critics. And you have to kind of decide what you wanna be.
Because it's hard to be both. And I love being a creator. I'd rather put stuff out there. And sure people are gonna be be critical of it, but that's actually okay. And I've noticed that too, again, back to reviews is when I've gotten a critical review, because I've gotten some. Like I have very real Amazon reviews out there. They're not like a hundred and seventy five stars. There's a bunch of fives, some fours, and a three or two even.
AJ Harper (37:13.034)
Gotta have those, you need those.
Brian Herriot (37:14.386)
You do, but but what I found, and this is again something I until you live it, you don't really realize it, is that when I read the critical review, also they're not just bashing me, which is good. They're they're really truly writing a good review. If I s what whatever what what what they've noted in there, I I can consciously say I've thought about that and chose not to go in that direction. You know what I mean? So only because we spent two and a half years writing the book.
AJ Harper (37:35.7)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (37:42.234)
in in a way. So I like e everything has been thought about and chosen. And so I'm not surprised by the review. It's just a fact that that's how they would have wanted it. And I chose not to do it. And so it I don't feel bad about it. yeah.
AJ Harper (37:53.59)
Mm.
Mike Michalowicz (37:55.668)
Yeah, it's amazing. It's funny, the money habit. I was just going on to Goodreads. There's far more reviews on Goodreads for books than there are on Amazon. And I was looking at the Money Habit. The one star, one of the one stars says, didn't get a chance to read the book yet. One star. Okay. Okay. but but there was one that was a three-star. It said this this author writes too casually. And I'm like, that's the ultiMike Michalowicze compliment because that's exactly
AJ Harper (38:19.734)
Yeah, that's what we intended to do.
Brian Herriot (38:23.176)
That's my choice. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (38:23.682)
That's what it to do. And to Brian's point is we don't write a book for everyone. We write the book for the right one. And you want those critical reviews to emphasize that. Brian, I'm curious about the percentage of time, maybe that's not the right choice of words, but the percentage of time for the craft versus the percentage of time for promoting your work. And I I know that changes over time, but how do you see the breakdown for you on that?
Brian Herriot (38:54.624)
I I am like the project manager type, so I'm able to like kind of set this is when I'm gonna do it and I do it kind of a thing. And so the way that I worked this f since day one was I always would
I I I kind of let myself go a little bit on the exercise, which I usually do in the morning. I know you wouldn't do that, Mike, but from five to eight is when I would work every single day. And what I did kind of varied throughout that time. Obviously, like you said, it was, you know, early on it was all writing and later it became all marketing. And it was just a gradual shift. in the the you know, the first year and a half was all writing and editing.
and then obviously this last year has been mostly marketing. So I I don't I don't know if I have a really good answer kind of break down. but I just dedicated an amount of time and just put put put my efforts forth during that time.
Mike Michalowicz (39:49.326)
Can you give us a sense what marketing drives tangible results for you versus what didn't or doesn't?
Brian Herriot (39:55.777)
yeah, for sure. so here so the less so the the thing that I learned too late, and AJ will know this, is that if you do wanna make a list, you really there's so many things you can do, but really what it comes down to is you have to have large bulk purchases.
AJ Harper (40:04.67)
I'm gonna do it.
Brian Herriot (40:16.888)
And and you need to have a something that somebody will like be like, obviously I wanna buy that and it costs, you know, five hundred books. And you sell a bunch of those and all of a sudden you'll make a list. So the bulk sale is extremely important, especially if that's a goal.
Mike Michalowicz (40:34.498)
Was that a goal of yours?
Brian Herriot (40:36.596)
It it A little too late. Yeah. I mean the the reason it would have been a goal is because the reason it should have been a bigger goal is because
AJ Harper (40:36.79)
A little too late.
Brian Herriot (40:49.426)
By having that label, it will help more readers get it. I I I'm guessing. Right. So that and that's the reason why. The the thing about bulk sales though that I learned is he I did have bulk sales. I probably had about 1,500 bulk sales instead of the 6,000 that I would have needed. but you still have to get those 1,500 books in the hands of readers because I really wanted to
Mike Michalowicz (40:52.621)
I see.
Brian Herriot (41:13.714)
I I really I'm in this for the long game. And Trina at page two said, I think your book is gonna be one of those books that sells more in year two than year one, more in year three than year two. And I'm like, that's that's a good com that that was like the biggest compliment she could give me because that's the sign of a must read book. and so it's very more important than the numbers sold was I wanna get them in the right hands and get them read. And so
Mike Michalowicz (41:26.52)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (41:37.565)
with Adela and Kirby and the team at page two, we came up with a variety of creative strategies to figure out how do you sell fifteen hundred books and then get them into into individual hands. And everyone got got there. So there's no books in warehouses or anything like that. but that so that that's a a kind of a a lesson learned there. But so bulk bulk sales for sure. The other things that I did that I think were helpful, although again they're not gonna push huge numbers of sales right out the gate, I I think.
AJ Harper (41:59.846)
Think that I did it that I
Brian Herriot (42:07.182)
is influencer relationship building. I really focused on author building. I one of a very early episodes you talked about the, you know, when you do a video review on Amazon, it will get noticed by the author. I did probably 75 of those. About the pro yeah. AJ once came and she's like, I just had a meeting and I went and I prepped and I looked on their website and there you were, Brian.
Mike Michalowicz (42:23.287)
Amazing.
AJ Harper (42:24.854)
Yeah, like AJ was came like, I just had a when I went and I recognize that I'd say there you are. Did it pay off with the
Mike Michalowicz (42:32.024)
Did did it pay off? Was it worth it for you?
Brian Herriot (42:34.366)
Well, I yes, I have a nice col and I focused hard on authors and I have a a a collection on my spreadsheet again of pro about forty authors that I've been able to engage as part of the process of helping support me and how can I help them. Sally Hogs and Yeah, I mean over two and a half years though I worked on that. And so it it's just thank you, thank you. yeah, and even to some of the the ones at the end.
AJ Harper (42:49.408)
That's a huge number, Brian. That's a huge number. Yeah, but it's still a huge number.
Mike Michalowicz (42:59.982)
That's a cool strategy.
Brian Herriot (43:02.556)
you know some and then some I'm still working on. Oliver Berkman, Morgan Housel. If anybody knows those guys, please. I've been working on them for two and a half years. But that's okay. good. Okay, good.
Mike Michalowicz (43:12.344)
They're both Uber fans of this show, by the way. Or they or they will be. I'm some I'm putting intention out to the universe. I don't know. I don't know that's true. So, okay. So that's a cool strategy you used. Any other things that paid off in their marketing?
Brian Herriot (43:25.736)
I should have been better prepared on this particular question. yes. So speak speaking's been a little hard for me because I've got I want to do speaking, but I also have stuff at home that I need to be home for. So it's I I've had to kind of ebb and flow a little bit on that one. but I still have it again, like I'm a firm believer in you develop a skill and you, you know, you develop these things. Maybe you're not gonna use them right away, but it'll come back, it can come back and help you out later in life.
Mike Michalowicz (43:28.834)
Well, you did speaking. I know you spoke at one of our events.
Okay.
Mike Michalowicz (43:39.798)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (43:53.967)
So I that's again not a thing that was wasted. but speaking would be an example of a way to get two hundred, three hundred, five hundred books at a clip if if you have that.
Mike Michalowicz (44:04.544)
Any big effort thing that didn't pay off.
Brian Herriot (44:09.812)
You know what? Not really. And you know why? Because I heard of all the stories of the different things that people have tried on your podcast or, you know, in the communities, right? Like I know I know what I know not to get a sign on Times Square, you know, or I know not to do some of these things. yeah, it's been pretty I've been able to yeah, that's another good lesson learned is what not to do. And so I
Mike Michalowicz (44:20.623)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
AJ Harper (44:20.648)
Ha ha ha.
AJ Harper (44:30.621)
Yeah.
AJ Harper (44:37.319)
Yeah.
Brian Herriot (44:37.894)
able to not do some things that, you know, I I w you know, I didn't waste money on.
AJ Harper (44:42.558)
You know, I I think you one of the things I was really impressed with with you is how you went all in. So you like I said, you did my workshop, then you well, first you did the get ready program, then you did my workshop, then you did the retreat, then you went to heroic, like you just you just kept pushing and doing as much as you could. Heroic for public speaking and so on. You also did a bunch of other writing classes. You were just totally in. But what you didn't do was get yourself
A marketing situation where you just paid somebody a bunch of money who is gonna put you in a cookie cutter situation where it's is a bullet, you know, the thing on Times Square, or the Fifth Avenue buy at Barnes and Noble, which is where you buy to have your book in the store. or any of those things, you just you decided what you should do, which is also a reader first thing, which is what's gonna work for my reader.
Does this even Mike Michalowiczter? Like, do they even care if I have a something in Times Square? No, they don't care. They don't give give any two hoots about it. But also, what a what's gonna work for me? So what's gonna work for my reader? How's it? Where are they hanging out? What where are they paying attention? And then do I wanna do those things? so you really looked at everything rather than just accepting, which you could have fallen into. You could have fallen into.
Brian Herriot (45:44.68)
Right.
AJ Harper (46:06.612)
because you were devoting yourself so all in, you could have easily stepped into some marketing stuff that would have been a waste of money.
Brian Herriot (46:13.682)
Yeah, and I I mean I did spend money, don't get me wrong, but I also didn't have like, you know, endless money. So I was forced to say, like, is this worth it? Is it would it be valuable? And some some things like I did again, like I could probably come back to a hundred ideas that I learned on the podcast. But like I did the hometown hero stories in the n local newspaper. I did one in my hometown, my current hometown in Claire's hometown, and they are all happy to do it, you know, and it was fun and you know, my family was like, my god, did you see this? Like it was pretty cool.
Mike Michalowicz (46:31.798)
Nice. Nice.
AJ Harper (46:38.826)
No.
Brian Herriot (46:43.636)
You know, is that gonna sell a ton of books? I don't know, but you know, it w it was fun to do.
Mike Michalowicz (46:48.088)
There's a book by Ryan Holliday called Trust Me, I'm Lying. And what one of the strategies is for marketing is to do these local media things, your local newspaper, then to contact the next level up in media to highlight that story and then spin it up. And one of my favorite stories around that is called The One Red Paper Clip, which is also a book by Kyle McDonald, I think is his name. And
Basically he traded a paper clip for another item and that item and subsequently did twelve of these transactions and ended up with a house. But in early on he started getting local media interested. there's this guy trying to barter his way to a house and then it became national media as he approached that goal. But that would have never happened. It doesn't it doesn't just appear there. You need to build the momentum behind it. So you've already started that, Brian. Well done.
Brian Herriot (47:42.036)
Thank you.
Mike Michalowicz (47:42.6)
Couple things because we guess I'm looking at the clock here. We don't have that much time left. I'm I'm curious how did you avoid writing that book? Like that this whole show is about not doing it and you avoided that book. How how do you avoid that?
Brian Herriot (47:55.349)
I don't know. I just feel like that book leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. Like I wouldn't want to be just associated with it. So like anytime some strategy or method anytime something seemed like a quick fix or a shortcut or something, I'm like, well, that's probably not right. And and it was no, no, and and and you know, all it took was
Mike Michalowicz (48:12.525)
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (48:16.386)
Yeah. So a book in thirty days is not right?
Brian Herriot (48:23.752)
you I'm part of different networking groups and sometimes you come across a person who d you know, it's a little bit embarrassed by their book or then I'm like, I noticed you have a book 'cause I'll always go look now. And like, don't read it. and and and the the thought of that just makes me a little sad actually. because again, the book is forever and now that's out there and you're trying to steer people away from it. That was those are like real life in the moment easy reminders of not wanting to write that book.
Mike Michalowicz (48:51.458)
Yeah, and there's these AI books now. Literally it says books in thirty minutes. It's the AI will interview you and you'll have a book. And it's just this generic slap.
Brian Herriot (49:00.38)
Well the the thing that I tell every and so I had my local reading at our Books Inc., which is our local store here in Alameda, and it was a wonderful event. It was so great. I'll send you some pictures. I did get a photographer because I learned that that's important to do and it it it just looks great. But the I always come back to the subtitle of your book, AJ, you know, cra craft a book that changes lives, including your own. And I think if you
AJ Harper (49:10.868)
Was it? Was it did you love it? yeah. Yes.
Mike Michalowicz (49:28.642)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Brian Herriot (49:30.312)
Do a book in 30 minutes or a month or three months or whatever, that's not gonna happen. You know, you you have to go through the effort and the str ups and downs. And I think I I actually said this in the reading that I did when somebody asked a question, is that I when I first got your book, AJ, I thought, this is just a cool subtitle. Sounds great. But it now I know that those subtitles are crafted very carefully and in there.
Are the two most important things in the book? It's craft. So you are crafting it. You can learn it. It's a skill. Should everyone write a book? Yes, because you can learn how to do it. And when you start to really think deeply about why you believe the things you believe, so much so that you can put them in a book and teach them to others, it is transforMike Michalowiczive as an author. And you do transform your life. This experience is.
Mike Michalowicz (50:21.974)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (50:27.806)
professionally the most incredible experience I've had in my life. And I that's and I thank you both for that. You know, because because of you, I have had that. and yeah, you you couldn't have named a a a better have had a better subtitle in there because it is so absolutely true in in my in my experience.
Mike Michalowicz (50:48.716)
We gotta start wrapping things up here. I'm just looking at the clock. I have one more question. AJ, you made some more I I'll let me sneak mine in real quick. You picked our unpaying or non paying sponsor, which is simplified page two. what was your experience with page two?
Brian Herriot (51:05.23)
incredible. Mainly because for a few reasons. one is how they bring authors together, how you bring authors together and share ideas. Yet another way I learned things not to do or things to do.
Mike Michalowicz (51:14.094)
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Herriot (51:21.724)
And again, it comes down to how likely are people to go along with some of these crazy ideas that I have or these wild ideas that I have. And I think you had the same thing where they'll they'll push back in a, you know, educated, professional way because they know things that I don't know. but they're always willing to have the conversation. And that was pretty incredible.
Mike Michalowicz (51:35.224)
Professional way, yeah. Educated professional, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (51:43.565)
Yeah, page two shot me down when I wanted to leave poster boards, cutouts of myself all over McMillan's offices. Something I've always been fantasizing of doing. And even page two, who's willing to do these outlier type of marketing things, said that's a little bit too much, Mike. And I think they made the right call. Yeah. I did, I did, I did. and it got shot down everywhere. But sneak that in. AJ, any final question or questions you have?
AJ Harper (51:58.422)
Can we just can we just go on the record, Mike, that you also tried to do that at Penguin Random House?
Brian Herriot (52:03.575)
Ha ha.
AJ Harper (52:11.951)
Brian, what kind of author do you want to be next? I mean, what do you still want to learn?
Mike Michalowicz (52:19.19)
Mm.
Brian Herriot (52:21.486)
I what what I've been thinking about recently is as I read different books, I'm seeing I I can look at a book now in a different way, right? Because I I can look up inforMike Michalowiczion about the author, then I can read the book and see how they did it. And so I think where I can develop as an author is
Again, just finding my thing and improving it. So I think I actually looked this up the other day. Miles Davis, I think, was had said something about like first you imitate and then you my God, I'm gonna screw this up. And then you can innovate. Imitate, then innovate. That's what it was. And so I wrote my book
Mike Michalowicz (53:04.322)
Maybe it's emulate? nice.
Brian Herriot (53:11.656)
based on the formulas, right, that you all laid out and s and it it created a great book. But I think as you continue to evolve, you can start to innovate on some things and try some new things as you get better at them. As you develop that excellence like you have at AJ, right? And that will be a fun experiment and a fun way to do things as I continued as an author.
AJ Harper (53:31.818)
Love that. Yeah, I love that. I love that you are setting that intention for yourself.
Mike Michalowicz (53:38.201)
For our listeners, tell us what you thought of this bonus episode. Brian, I want to thank you so much for your time today. It it was a really cool exploration in the author journey and it kind of rekindled some of the stuff in my own mind of my own experience. But for our our listeners, we'd love to get your comments. They're very important to us. So whatever pod system you're listening on right now, go to the comment system, the section, and post your thoughts on this interview. We want to do a lot more of them. We do have a few more planned. who's up next in our bonus episodes, AJ?
AJ Harper (54:08.362)
Roseanne Kapana Hodge. In fact, I see her book is right behind on I see you have you have The Disregulated Kid, you have Exhibit Smarter by Robin Davis, who's another retreat alum, and Take Breaks Work Better by John Briggs, who will be after Roseanne Kapana Hodge. Nice. Nice job there, Brian. That's gotta support. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (54:10.296)
Who we spoke about last week, right?
Mike Michalowicz (54:25.794)
Yeah. Very
Brian Herriot (54:28.658)
Gotta support, right? The community, yes.
Mike Michalowicz (54:31.094)
That's what the community does for each other. All right, Brian, thanks for joining us. AJ, as always, thank you. And to our listeners, if you want to contact us, reach out at hello at DWTBpodcast.com. By the way, if you're interested in the imprint that Brian does with us, it's simplified. You can email us there. Also, do not forget, AJ has a Mastercraft class coming up. It's on December 3rd. It's designed.
for book bulk buys for your launch and beyond. Make sure you attend that. You go to ajharper.com. And as Brian suggested, get her book. Gosh, just the title and subtitle alone should be encouraging you to write like an author that writes that book. and that reminds me, I mean, not that book, the greatest book. Don't write that book. Don't write the cruddy one. Write the one people are starving for, the one that is calling out from inside to be written. Don't write that book.
Brian Herriot (55:09.446)
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz (55:28.782)
Instead, write the greatest book you can.
AJ Harper (55:35.062)
Good job, Brian.
Mike Michalowicz (55:35.79)
So Brian, that was amazing. That was a little clunky at the end there. That was awesome, dude. Thanks for the early start. I got ten o'clock, so I got a bolt. Guys, I appreciate you. just ha hang tight before you hang up because we gotta upload files. Mm Mike Michalowiczt's gonna come on. Yeah. Yeah, both of you sit there. Mike Michalowiczt will tell you what to do. See guys. Yeah. It looks like most of the files are uploaded already. Yeah, I'm just gonna hit stop here and it should only take a few seconds.
Brian Herriot (55:36.66)
Cool. That was so fun and hopefully helpful. Alright. Okay, bye. Alright, see ya.
AJ Harper (55:45.014)
See you Brian. Take care.
Brian Herriot (55:49.62)
yeah, I'll make s I'll make sure. I'm at I'm at ninety-nine. Okay, bye Mike. Thanks for the reminder actually.
AJ Harper (55:49.853)
Okay, I'm sitting here.
Bye, Mike.
Mike Michalowicz (56:04.738)
Yeah, good interview guys. Awesome. Yeah. Apart from Mike, of course. Yeah. He's the weak link in this system, right?
AJ Harper (56:06.432)
Thanks, Mike Michalowiczt.
Brian Herriot (56:07.752)
Thank you. Thank you.
AJ Harper (56:13.101)
look, the sun is coming up where you are, Brian.
Brian Herriot (56:15.699)a
Yes, it is. I hope my son's awake. I'm gonna probably have to call.