In this episode, Mike and AJ once again pull back the curtain to show how the sausage gets made. They breakdown what research authors may—or may not—need, how to weave it into the text, and when is there enough. You’ll also find out how saunas factor into Mike’s creative process… but you might want to skip it. (Don’t make it weird. Are you? Did you make it weird? It’s perfectly natural!) It’s another fun insider episode with these two, you won’t want to miss it.
Be sure to visit https://dwtbpodcast.com for more information and add your name to start receiving their newsletter. If you’d like to support this show, rate, subscribe and leave a review on your podcast app.
Defy, by Dr. Sunita Sah
AJ Harper, website
AJ’s Socials:
Mike Michalowicz, website
Mike’s Socials:
Episode 63:
“Using Research in Your Book”
Mike Michalowicz: Welcome back to the Don't Write That Book podcast, where you can
learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship follow along with us. As we give
you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts myself, Mike
Michalowicz and AJ Harper.
Krista does that. She goes, I want some brekkie. I'm like. Breakfast?
AJ Harper: It's because, it's like a British thing. Oh, okay. That's where it comes from. Does
she watch a lot of British shows or?
Mike Michalowicz: Tons.
AJ Harper: Okay, because they'll put everything in the, you know, shortened.
Mike Michalowicz: Thank you for clarifying that. I thought it was just a cutesy thing.
AJ Harper: Does she watch Bake Off?
Mike Michalowicz: I'm sure.
AJ Harper: Yeah, so everything is brekkie, coffee.
Mike Michalowicz: She takes any of the historical royalty type stuff. Victorian. Those type
things.
AJ Harper: Regency era.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: But she's like, oh, I can have some brekkie now. I'm like, what are you
doing to me?
AJ Harper: It's still English. It's just slang.
Mike Michalowicz: It is. Um, I'm joined in studio and it's a tough time.
So Polly's a little ill right now, um, or a lot, I don't know what you want to share, but, um,
thanks for coming in anyway under...
AJ Harper: You got it.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Um, and prayers to Polly and she's on the road to recovery, it
sounds, it's just, she's got a little stuff to navigate.
AJ Harper: On we go.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Okay. Um, in today's episode, we're gonna talk about using your
research for your book, uh, to, to make the best book you can.
But I want to start off with a couple of shout outs that we got Lauren from Adelaide. I've
been there. Do you know, they don't call it breckie down there, um, but they have a lot of
these Y terms, so an electrician's a sparky, a, um, well there's other terms, but Adelaide,
lovingly or not, is called Radelaide because it's not radical, it's the most lame area, according
to other cities, but I've been to Adelaide, it's beautiful, it's wine country.
AJ Harper: So, what do you mean by radical? Oh, you mean rad like an 80s rad?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, like rad. Like, oh, you'regoing to Radelaide? Like, it's like a joke
with other cities because it's so not cool.
AJ Harper: Oh.
Mike Michalowicz: it’s a dig.
AJ Harper: Okay, but it sounds pretty cool.
Mike Michalowicz: It's gorgeous. It's on the water. You have, um, beautiful, beautiful vistas
and the wine is off the charts.
Well, Lauren from Adelaide, Australia turned in her 80,000 word manuscript to a publisher in
December. And, uh, Adayla made a note here, “Loved your core message. I've spent the past
year listening to your podcast and your audio book from AJ as I worked my first book. I
found your insights, AJ, so helpful, practical, and interesting.” Nice!
AJ Harper: Yeah. She wrote a whole long email. We just pulled a little bit. Congrats.
Mike Michalowicz: Congrats.
AJ Harper: You got it done, Lauren.
Mike Michalowicz: Now, the other one's Ansa from South Carolina, and I'm going to read a
little bit from the note she sent us. “I purchased Write a Must Read a few months ago. When I
finished it, I subscribed to AJ's newsletter and learned about the show. Then I started binge
listening when I drive,” including this episode. She's binging right now. She's like, “Oh my
God, they're talking about me. I'm almost caught up now. So I started varying the podcast I'm
listening to, but my 10 year old son, Fannaby. Uh, request I only listen to Don't Write That
Book when I drive him to and from school.”
So a big shout out to you, kiddo. I knew we had fans.
AJ Harper: He's 10.
Mike Michalowicz: I know. He's cool. That's because he's cool. He's probably the coolest 10
year old that school's ever seen.
AJ Harper: No doubt.
Mike Michalowicz: He said you guys are very interesting. We had him listen to other
podcasts, but I'd never heard him asking to listen to a podcast except yours. In an episode,
you asked if kids are listening. Yes. My kid is a big fan and the coolest kid in school.
AJ Harper: For sure. He's gonna have, he's gonna be ready to go step right into publishing
right out of high school.
Mike Michalowicz: I know, exactly. What, 10th grade, uh, 10 years old is what, 5th grade,
4th grade? Probably around that time frame?
AJ Harper: I, I, yeah, ish.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, so let's say 4th grade. Dude, those 5th graders better watch out for
this kid. That's right. He's gonna own it. All right, so today we're gonna talk about research,
um, So, I got a lot of questions for you.
AJ Harper: You know what we didn't do though?
Mike Michalowicz: What's that?
AJ Harper: Intros.
Mike Michalowicz: I started to, but then I think I went into the wrong direction talking about
health concerns.
AJ Harper: Well, you're Mike Michalowicz, author of many books on entrepreneurship, all
built around your mission to eradicate entrepreneurial poverty. And you wrote My Money
Bunnies, a children's book, which I think doesn't get enough play. You have a second one
coming? You said you might.
Mike Michalowicz: Children's book, I may. I may. Yeah, but not in the works.
AJ Harper: Oh. I think it would be great.
Mike Michalowicz: Thank you.
AJ Harper: Yeah. On entrepreneurship. What about that?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah. Especially for 10-year-olds.
AJ Harper: You know I had a little business when I was a kid.
Mike Michalowicz: No, I did not know that. What'd you have?
AJ Harper: It was called Craft Kids. We made crafts. Popsicle sticks, beads. Had a little
table I set up in school. Had a bunch of kids working for me.
Mike Michalowicz: How old were you?
AJ Harper: It was elementary school.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay, maybe you were ten years old.
AJ Harper: I think, maybe. You know, I had to cash it in. You know why?
Mike Michalowicz: Why?
AJ Harper: Which is just too much. I'm crude, too fast. Kids buying these, you know, I was
like, just make anything.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, isn't that funny? Demand skyrocket.
AJ Harper: I think you should consider it a book on entrepreneurship.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Okay. And I'm joined in the studio by AJ Harper. She is the
author of Write a Must-Read. That is the must-read book on writing a book. And, uh, Just
want to acknowledge you're, you're showing up for everybody right now when you're getting
pulled in 75 directions at once.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: I've even made asks of you say, Hey, let's just, let's just put this thing,
the whole thing on hold. It's okay. And you're like, Nope, we're going to keep going.
AJ Harper: You know what? That's how I roll. You got to keep trucking. Even if it's not as
fast as you want it to be, you can't. What we're talking about is Mike's book, but
Mike Michalowicz: yeah,
AJ Harper: You can't lose momentum. You can't stay out of once you're in it. You have,
even if you're scratching along, you can't put the brakes, totally.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Because that actually is too disruptive, and it can really mess with the mojo.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that makes, that makes good sense.
AJ Harper: So even if it's slower than you want it to be, it can't be okay. Halt.
Mike Michalowicz: Because the thoughts are still going on and you had a couple profound
ideas.
AJ Harper: One of them was, uh.
Mike Michalowicz: An alliterative renaming of something which is really cool.
AJ Harper: I think kind of huge actually.
Mike Michalowicz: I do like it.
AJ Harper: Which then led to another thing.
Mike Michalowicz: Yep.
AJ Harper: But yeah, you gotta, you gotta keep moving even if it's not at the pace you want
it to be.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, and I found something. I'm just storing them all in my, uh, I carry
a checklist. This is a little hack with me. There's an app called To Do. And so you can sort,
um, out Where is it on my phone? Yeah, it's called To Do. And so you can sort out any tasks
you have to do. Because I always forget what I have to do.
So I track home projects, work projects, and so forth. But I also put for the book. And so
when I have a thought, instead of having to find the manuscript and put it in, I set up my To
Do list. Mm hmm. So I found out this story about the chronometer, um, And how it's a, was a
beacon for ships, but it's also redefined.
That was, it was invented, I think, 300 years ago, how ships navigate the ocean, is used, the
exact same systems used today in GPSs. So when you find the right beacon, it can monitor
you through any changing seasons or any changing technology, whatever the future holds, it's
a truism, a way to measure distances through time is what the chronometer does.
AJ Harper: Oh, so you're likening that to, that's your analogy regarding the system.
Mike Michalowicz: Percentages.
AJ Harper: Oh, the percentages!
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Oh.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. I already put it in the manuscript, the chronometer, but now I
found out some more about how it's kind of ageless.
AJ Harper: Oh, see, Oh, that's good.
Mike Michalowicz: I think it's good. Yeah. You'll see. I put it in chapter two. So three, three,
you'll see.
AJ Harper: I love that. And that brings us to research, because people think research is just
studies or statistics, but it's also weird stuff like that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: You're a good, how did you find, how did you find that?
Mike Michalowicz: How did I find the chronometer?
AJ Harper: Is it just because you heard somebody talk about it, or you watched a
documentary?
Mike Michalowicz: No, this one was through Googling. No, okay, the GPS.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: This was, I was in the sauna, and I have a television. When I, when I
watch PBS, sometimes PBS channel, so I'm watching,
AJ Harper: You watch PBS and your sauna.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes. This is ridiculous. Just don't, don't visualize it.
AJ Harper: I just visualize
Mike Michalowicz: that you squinted and you like you dry heaved a little bit,
AJ Harper: A little, it's a little, it's a little bougie.
Mike Michalowicz: It's a little, it's very bougie. Um, I was watching. This gets even more
crazy. A PBS special on quantum physics.
AJ Harper: Cool.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. And quantum physics, how there is an observed reality, and an
alternative reality, and then the somewhere in between.
AJ Harper: Right.
Mike Michalowicz: Basically what they said is the application of quantum physics to
modern science and then they say, you know, the GPS is based upon quantum physics, uh,
that time is used to measure distance and how they kind of coalesce together.
And I was like, oh, the chronometer, the chronometer was the first thing to use time to
measure distance east and west. I'm like, oh my gosh. That's how it came about.
AJ Harper: And because you're actively in writing season now, your brain is drawing the
Mike Michalowicz: It really does, yeah.
AJ Harper: That is how it works. You could be doing anything.
You could be watching PBS in the sauna. You could be reading a book. You could be talking
to a friend. You could be reading old correspondence, whatever.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And your brain will find it. That's like this. Oh, that's like that.
Mike Michalowicz: It's so fascinating.
AJ Harper: Yeah, and so that's another reason why you have to keep, you can't put the
brakes.
When you're actively writing and it's something, you're doing a little something every day, or
a lot of something every day, everything else that you're doing, even just a general
conversation with your spouse, could give you an idea.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. What's the value of research?
AJ Harper: For a book?
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: Um, well, if mostly it is, you know, to back up what you're saying, you know,
but for
Mike Michalowicz: For validity, you mean?
AJ Harper: yeah, but there's other, you know, that's the obvious, which is, um, this is what I
believe, or this is what I know.
And I'm not the only one science says this, that that's the primary reason it's a border ideas.
Okay. Right. But also it can be what you just talked about, which is comprehension. So
you're going to compare this chronometer. To the percentages that readers need to take to
save for various things. And that's going to back up your idea because it shows that there's
this other thing that stands the test of time but also help them comprehend what it is.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And I think it's a lot of it is that I think there's a resistance when
someone sees something that they perceive as new and they say, well, I've never done this or
I won't do it cause I've. It's not for me. But then if we can say, Oh, you're already doing this
in your life, then it's like the bridge has been built.
AJ Harper: That's a, you're a huge advocate of that and I, I think that's so smart.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: You're, you're already doing it. Here's the ways you're already doing it or the
world is already doing it.
Mike Michalowicz: Right.
AJ Harper: It's been discovered. It's something that we use all the time.
Mike Michalowicz: Correct. And that's why when I wrote the story in chapter three about
the chronometer, uh, and the guy who discovered it, I was like, Oh, this makes sense to
beacon and so forth, but it's not relatable to the reader.
I mean, who, who here has a ship using that? But when I heard that GPS thing on PBS, I was
like, Oh, okay. Everyone uses a GPS.
AJ Harper: So you actually had the chronometer earlier, then you watched PBS in the sauna.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And then you found the other nuance and that made that work.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, and I put my little to do list, because that I didn't insert into the
book yet.
AJ Harper: Yeah, so that's an example of, again, like we talked about, those things that you
can't, I'm always telling students, until you experience it, it's hard to fully get what it's like to
get these little sparks like that. But that is, it really only happens. When you're actively
working on something, but you sorry, go ahead.
Mike Michalowicz: I just like this to ask myself. Is there scientific proof or worldly
AJ Harper: Historical references.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah that support an argument because otherwise it's just a hypothesis if
if you have External information that also supports it then it becomes more of a theory or
something more real So I think without it Our books, like, going back to profit first, we talk
about Parkinson's Law and how you adjust to a supply.
If we simply said, well, you've less money, don't worry, you'll make it work. It's human
nature. People are like, meh, you don't get me. But when we say, oh, there's a theory about
Parkinson's Law, and this is what Parkinson's Law is, the more time, for example, you have,
the longer you take. And then we did, I think, even a real-world example.
If you're given a week to complete a project, it takes you a week. If you're given one day, you
got it done in a day.
AJ Harper: Right, which everybody can relate to because that's what they do with.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: but you know, I don't have any research in my book
Mike Michalowicz: I'm going through my head. Really?
AJ Harper: Yeah
Mike Michalowicz: So, okay. So here's the big question. You could write a book with no
research, obviously.
AJ Harper: Yeah, that was intentional.
Mike Michalowicz: Why is that?
AJ Harper: It's just it just wasn't I feel like I'm teaching people how to do something And I
don't think you need evidence that that's going to work. I think the only way is to do it. Yeah.
So I was more concerned about the do ability factor than proving that that's the case. I mean,
yeah, it's just, what would be the point?
So then what would be the point in saying we should have a must read book or focus on the
reader?
Mike Michalowicz: Well, you could look perhaps at the success of a must-read book.
AJ Harper: Yeah, but you can't actually get, first of all, whether something's a must-read or
not is subjective. (True.) So that's not actually a study. (True.)
It's not science. (True.) And, as you know, it's pretty dang hard to get actual Numbers about
books. Yes hard enough to get him about your own book. Yeah, I know So what would be the
point? I mean, I'm the one saying this one's a must read I'm declaring it. So yeah, there was
nothing really in the book that needed that.
Mike Michalowicz: So how do our listeners like Lauren or Ansa or someone else decide if
they should put research in their book or not.
AJ Harper: Well, let's, I want to say one, one more thing, which is I think people
underestimate that you can use research for, to help people feel less alone. I think when you
use statistics, you know, that's an example.
You're not the only person who feels this way, struggles with this. I think we can also use
some research to help people feel like they aren't the only person on the planet dealing with
whatever they're dealing with.
Mike Michalowicz: So I'm going to share a little counterpoint to that. And I don't know who
to attribute this to, but they were talking about death. And in this case, they said, uh, numbers
are a statistic, a story. Uh, is heartfelt or a tragedy. I think actually was the word they said.
So, you know, 10, 000 people die is a statistic. Joe passed away is now a tragedy.
AJ Harper: Yeah, but it's not one or the other.
Mike Michalowicz: But do you think people feel... Or maybe I have to do the combination.
To your point, if I want to connect with the reader, is it, is it doing both the statistics, the
large numbers to show the data, you're not alone, and then giving individual stories to say this
one, this person is just like you or I'm just like you?
AJ Harper: Yeah. I think it's a combination. I don't think it's either or.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay, I'll buy that. So tell me, how would you determine if you should
use research or not?
AJ Harper: Well, there's a lot of factors. If you're an academic, for example, you're, you
must use research, right? You know, you've got your career to think about. You can't just say,
this is what I think.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And abandon every, you know, everything you're already doing in your career.
Mike Michalowicz: I think that's the tenet of any of these, these papers they produce.
AJ Harper: Well, the peer reviewed, yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: For sure. But if you're writing a book, so a lot of academics will write books for
academic presses, but some will go for a mainstream audience. So, for example, I actually
have I'm really excited. We're recording this on January 13th and Dr. Sunita Sah, her book
comes out tomorrow. She is a 2020 alum of my workshop and she, it's called Defy. Um, Big
Five Press. She's already been, she's not going to be on the Dax Shepard podcast. She's
already had did a big thing on CNN. Her book is the edit Amazon's editor pick for nonfiction.
Oh, I'm telling you, she's killing it.
Mike Michalowicz: What's the name of this book?
AJ Harper: Defy.
Mike Michalowicz: I'll pull this up. Okay.
AJ Harper: It comes out tomorrow. Dr. Sah, that's her research on why we comply and how
we can defy according to our own values. Okay. So she's, was 2020. I'm actually going to go
see her reading in Rye. Later this week.
Mike Michalowicz: Nice.
AJ Harper: She's gotta have she needs to bring the goods with the research and she did
Yeah, it's it's her own research, but she's also bringing in other research.
That's an example of someone who needs research Yeah, but she also is it's also Uh, full of
story, you know, it's both and we use the story to prove that, show the research and action and
how it works, but if you're someone like me, right? I don't, there's no reason I need any
research for this. The book I wrote, Write a Must-Read the next book I write. I will have
research in it.
Mike Michalowicz: What is that book? Not the editorial.
AJ Harper: I haven't, um, haven't
Mike Michalowicz: determined.
AJ Harper: No, I know what it is. I just haven't talked about it yet.
Mike Michalowicz: Gotcha. Okay. Interesting.
AJ Harper: So I think you have to decide a, do you need it for your career? Meaning do you
need to write a research-backed book is is that or is that who you are like Malcolm Gladwell,
for example? What would we do if we opened up a Malcolm Gladwell book and there wasn't
much research in it? Yeah
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah,
AJ Harper: What's going on Malcolm? Do you need to have a conversation? So if it's you
know your deal like it's part of who you are and how you show up in the world if you're an
Academic and sometimes if you're a CEO or someone in a high level like that where that's
expected I would also say if you're trying really to help people understand and you need the
research to do that, for example, in the book that we're writing right now, the core message
for your book requires research to back it up.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: So it's, it's in every chapter.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. I'm thinking of some, some authors in
the nonfiction business space. Seth Godin, I don't think is ever used. Research. I don't think
he cites any research in any of his books.
AJ Harper: Yeah, so you don't have to.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, you don't have to. Yeah. I was thinking about E Myth doesn't, um,
I just read a book. I think it was called about happiness. No research. It's just the author. But
does the author, because I remember in that book, the author said, this is just my own
experience, my own theory. Is that the way to, okay.
AJ Harper: Just be transparent about it.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Does it change the journey when you've done books? With
research versus without, does it change your writing style as you're going along? Does it
affect you?
AJ Harper: It's not really the style, but it's more like it can shape the content of the book.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Where you come upon a piece of research and you say, oh, dang.
Mike Michalowicz: Dang, yeah.
AJ Harper: I, uh, That changes everything or that changes this much or maybe we need a
whole chapter on that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah when we were writing All In, that guy Joel with the double L for
the last name. He was the guy who worked at the restaurant the King's smoke shop Yeah
AJ Harper: Yeah, down into Texas. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, we did some research that we found by a guy named John Pearson
named correctly around ownership And the idea was what's called psychological ownership.
Our mind kicks in and he had these three principles of control over the work you do, uh, the
ability to personalize it and so forth.
When we were listening to Joel, we interviewed Joel twice. If I remember correctly, I, you
and I, I think, interviewed Joel together. Was that the one when you said he wants to be an
IndyCar racer? Were you on that call?
AJ Harper: You also, well, you interviewed him also alone.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, alone. Okay. Interviewed him twice. And I remember.
If I remember correctly, I did the found the John Pearson stuff where we found it in the
middle and when I heard him share some of the same stuff the second time, I heard it totally
differently because the context of, Oh my gosh, he disguised Pearson's work applies to what
Joel's talking about. Joel was given the authority to turn soda cans in the, um, cooler.
I'm laughing because to give someone authority is crazy. He was given the task of first stock
these soda cans and beer cans in the cooler what changed and the owner said, but, position it
however you want. So first he was following instruction set second when he had the authority
now and what he did was he Changed him.
So the, all the labels always faced out. So you knew it wasn't like the back of his head of
butter is that a Pepsi you could see in the front. Secondly, he color-coded it. Like he wanted
certain colors and he, and he, and alcohol is down low. No, it was high because kids and
something. So it was down low, his whole little system. He, I don't know if it resulted in
more sales. It resulted in a pride in him.
AJ Harper: Right, and a change in his behavior and then he became a rock star on the team.
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And so that whole story in the book became more effective. And
as I teach it on stage or in the book, I think that research was pivotal in that.
So, okay. What are the types of research that exist?
AJ Harper: Well, there's qualitative. So you just talked about interviewing and people
sometimes forget that interviewing is actually part of collecting research. We're thinking, Oh,
I've got to find the, all these studies, but there's different types.
Mike Michalowicz: That's a good point. Did you, you didn't interview anybody for Write a
Must-Read?
AJ Harper: I interviewed a couple of my students to get their perspective. So I had their
stories, right?
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. But that's more experiential. Okay.
AJ Harper: So qualitative is interviews, focus groups, and you know, your anecdotal stuff,
your own observations. Okay. Then you have quantitative research, which is surveys,
statistical analysis. You could pull from a survey that exists, but you could also conduct a
survey.
Mike Michalowicz: Do you have a favorite resource that you go to when getting
quantitative? Information?
AJ Harper: No.
Mike Michalowicz: I like I mean, there's so much. There's so much.
AJ Harper: It's changing all the time.
Mike Michalowicz: I like, uh, using ChatGPT now, and then telling it to pull up research
papers, and then reading those research papers.
And sometimes they're so big, what you do is you pull up the research paper, download it in a
PDF, insert it back in the ChatGPT, ask it to summarize, and then, then start identifying what
paragraphs to read. Because some of these papers are massive.
AJ Harper: So you have to be careful about using ChatGPT because it's not always accurate
and they're also finding now that it's actually, this is, uh, some AI is actually inherently biased
and racist.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, I know.
AJ Harper: So, you gotta be careful with that stuff. (You do.) All right, what are you getting,
really?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, so that's why I, when I go into initially for the queries, I ask for
the research papers. I go to the dot, they're usually dot edus. (Mm hmm.) Pull down the PDF,
and if they're monster big, I put it back in the ChatGPT, have it read it.
Identify the summary of it, and then pinpoint the paragraphs to read, and then I go back to the
PDF. (Uh huh.) So this is an assisted way of, of reviewing research papers.
AJ Harper: Right, but you want to keep in mind that you might not be hearing about some
stuff.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, that's totally true. Yeah. But some of these papers, I can't read like
you. Some of these papers are like 20 pages. I'm like, I'm done.
AJ Harper: You know you can read the abstract.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, yeah, that's true. That's why I have ChatGPT.
AJ Harper: I don't read the whole thing. You think I read the whole thing?
Mike Michalowicz: Well, you have an ability to skim very quickly.
AJ Harper: I can skim and grab the thing I want.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, I'll send you, I'll send you like just a download of, of mind
garbage to answer one question.
You'll be like, Hey Mike, what time was it yesterday when you picked up lunch? And I'll
send you like six pages, and you'll read through it and you'll say, okay, got what I needed.
AJ Harper: That's true.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, I would have to read the full six pages and then I'd be more
confused.
AJ Harper: You know what? I don't know how that happened.
I don't, I don't know when that happened.
Mike Michalowicz: That's skills. I think
AJ Harper: I just developed it.
Mike Michalowicz: You're ChatGPT. Welcome to quantum physics. Welcome to quantum
physics, parallel universe.
AJ Harper: Woo! I am the AI.
Mike Michalowicz: You are the AI.
AJ Harper: So, so. So we have qua, qualitative, quantitative, we have case studies. That's
research. And so that's analysis of how a specific person or company or group approached
solving a problem. And then of course, we have experiments and then archival, which is, I
think you and I love this. (I love that. It's my favorite.) History and public record, man.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: It's amazing how people don't dive into history.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, history's the best. It repeats itself.
AJ Harper: And it's just, you get the juiciest anecdotes and cool, cool things you never,
never heard about.
Mike Michalowicz: I love the anecdotal part. These stories, you, you can literally, it seems
like, find a story on anything your mind can imagine. It's, it's happened sometime in world
history, and it's probably documented. And
AJ Harper: I like the takes where it's like, well, you thought it was this in history, but it's
really this other thing.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: I love that.
Mike Michalowicz: What about surveys? Uh, do you have to, I can survey two people and
say, has my system served you by doing that?
AJ Harper: That's just a conversation.
Mike Michalowicz: I know, but I'm saying, is there a certain point where it has to be? Um,
statistically provable there, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, or do you identify that in
your research?
I know when you watch television, you see these clinical trials and I say, you know, 75
percent or a hundred percent of users get benefits. And then you see surveyed three people.
AJ Harper: It's like, okay, right. Well, you want to have a bigger pool.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. So do you need to identify the size of the pool?
AJ Harper: And yeah, you need to identify the size of the pool, and you should go for as big
a pool as you can. Incidentally, if you do your own survey. And you have enough people,
meaning hundreds or thousands of people who responded. That's an asset. That is an asset.
Mike Michalowicz: We did it for this new book, our new personal finance book, and I think
we have a thousand, over a thousand responses. I told you about this a while ago.
We have this big spreadsheet. I even sent you the link.
AJ Harper: I have the spreadsheet, but I don't think I have the updated, did you, have you
done the analysis of it? Yeah,
Mike Michalowicz: yeah. We've done some queries on it. Um,
AJ Harper: Actually, I have the spreadsheet tab open on my computer. Cause that, what I do
is I take, you know how you can have a new window? For Chrome? Yeah. So I have, uh, um,
for our book, I almost said the title. I already ruined a couple episodes ago. For this book.
(Yeah.) Every tab is for the book. So, because I don't want to go digging around. Oh, that's
smart. So it has the spreadsheet, has the outline, has the link to the interviews. Because I just,
I, my brain, I just can't, I need it all.
Mike Michalowicz: That's smart.
AJ Harper: Right there, so I don't have to go digging for things.
Mike Michalowicz: That's smart.
AJ Harper: So yeah, the spreadsheet open. But I don't think I remember, I just, it's just a
bunch of responses.
Mike Michalowicz: One way I use research and tell me if this is a good idea. I have my own
thought. So when we're writing this book, the one of the core arguments or the actually the
core argument is.
Human nature is designed to function a certain way. And if we align our money routine
consistent with our natural habits, we'll excel. And so I, then that's my core thesis or core
concept. I want to now support that with research. I do some research. I'm like, how long has
humanity been wired this way? And then I come across cavemen and it says, you know,
cavemen were hired, uh, were wired to, to gather food very quickly. Hunts preserve it in
some way and then disperse it over time, like, oh, that's, that's what I wanted.
AJ Harper: Mm-hmm.
Mike Michalowicz: My question is, how do I know I'm not kind of fitting a square peg in a
round hole and trying to fit a story in as opposed to it kind of naturally slides in properly. Do,
do you, do you have an instinct or a gut around that?
AJ Harper: I mean, it's pretty obvious.
Mike Michalowicz: To you. Not to me, because all sudden stories, I'm like, this is great.
Like that's. Out. Out! Another one's like, the chronometer, like for whatever reason, you're
like, yeah, that's, that's freaking good. GPS is good.
AJ Harper: Huh. I don't know if I can answer the question.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: I, I just, I just, I just know that it's not quite there. It's not quite connecting.
Yeah. Well, okay, we're just, you know, uh, for listeners we're in a tag situation right now.
Yeah. So we have um, um, manuscript that we're passing back and forth. (Yeah.) You sent
back, you aren't going to remember this, but there was one paragraph where you were talking
about a piece of research, but it was in with an, I said, this needs to go later.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh yeah. I actually remember you saying that. Yeah. And I agree in the
comments. Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah. So I don't know. It's just, uh, you, I think it was interesting. I don't know
how I know that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, it's a, it's a powerful thing because I'm, here's what I wanted to do.
I wanted to support an argument in there and I found a piece of research, oh that supports it.
And you're like, no, too early because it, it will overwhelm the reader in getting the core
concept. So you even said, just let them understand what's going on and then we're going to
support it later. Uh, a few paragraphs later, there's another piece of research, right, but this is
an appropriate spot. And I'm like, oh, that's so interesting.
And, and you're right.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah, you know what it is? Okay, so it comes, it comes back to this progression
of understanding, which is the flow of taking the reader from where they are on page one to
the, to the back. It's just back to the promise, man. And so, it's an unfolding of knowledge and
they can't take it all at the same time.
So, here's the thing, you are a... You're like a kid in a candy shop with the research. And you
love data, science, the back stuff up. And you are a voracious learner. So you just want to tell
us all the stuff.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And so, I sometimes have to pull it out because it's too much at one time. It's
like, it's like if you're like, look and look at this and then look at this and then look at that.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, there you go.
AJ Harper: And it's too much for the reader. They just need to get this one point and then
let's move on and then we can bring that other piece up.
Mike Michalowicz: Overselling. It's overselling. That's what it is.
AJ Harper: It's not overselling. It's just, you're just psyched. You're just like, Oh my God,
this is the coolest thing.
Mike Michalowicz: That's what overselling is Yeah, it's when you, the, the reader is
convinced, but you're still trying to convince them because you're so hyped about it. Which
now dissuades them. It's, it's overwhelming information.
AJ Harper: Well, it's like, you, you process very fast. So you can say, Okay, there's three
church links to this, links to this, links to this, but the reader can't go that fast.
Right. So, it's just a matter of just, let it, slowing that roll, you know? But if the reason, if. As
far as nixing research, sometimes it's a stretch.
Mike Michalowicz: I frustrated Krista last night. We're playing backgammon and she rolled
like a six or something. And she's like, she's counting the spaces. There's like these little like
triangles that you kind of point at. And she goes one, two, it's right here. She goes, Mike, just
cause you process it that way. I don't, she's like, let me learn at my own rate. So I just, there's
a certain number of blocks. You just kind of know where the position is going to be. She
needs to count it to get to that level where she's like, Oh, I see how the blocks work. And I
was not allowing her to learn. And that became frustrating.
AJ Harper: Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: ‘Cause I had the answer.
AJ Harper: Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: And the funny thing is I wanted to do it out of support, but it actually
degraded her ability to learn.
AJ Harper: Yeah. And I think, um, the, you know, the only way to really know if the
research is, is applicable or if you're putting that back to your original point, square peg into a
round hole is to try it.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: That's it. I mean, maybe it'll work. Maybe it won't.
Mike Michalowicz: I think that is the ultimate test. Just, just try it. Um, let's see, uh, is there
a quantity, volume of research? Can you? (Oh my god, yeah.) You read these academic reads.
Oh, my God. I want to kill myself. And I love research.
AJ Harper: It's, um, you know, we would say what? And just that was dense. That was
dense read. Yeah. The other day I was in writing sprints and, uh, somebody was asking me
about length of a book. They said, I really want my book to be, um, you know, I don't
remember what it was, something like 55, 000 words between 50. I said, okay, why?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: I thought maybe that's the wrong number. They gave me whatever. It's, yeah.
They just had decided that was the perfect length. (Oh.) Because they wanted it to be an easy
read. You know? Okay. I said, well, my book is 85,000 words. And they were flabbergasted,
like, how can that be? Yeah. It's so easy to get through. Because it's not about the word count.
It's about what it feels like to read it. (Yes.) So you could read a really mega book. But if it's
super dense and it just takes you forever to get through a few pages, that, that's not a good
reading experience.
Mike Michalowicz: Interesting.
AJ Harper: Yeah. Most people are shocked to know how many words are in my book.
Mike Michalowicz: So, it's almost like this, I don't know, airing, fluffing it up a little bit.
Like, like, I'm thinking like bedsheets and stuff where you kind of fluff it up to make it light.
Um, the, the tone. Do you have to present research in a very formal tone? Can it be informal?
Does that compromise the research? Like, does that matter?
AJ Harper: No, it can be, you present the research as it is.
Mike Michalowicz: But, but you still sustain your own voice. You don't break from it.
AJ Harper: No, I mean, you're going to have to quote people, but you can easily just
translate it and using however you want to talk to your people.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: You know, you might say, like, if you talk about the GPS chronometer, I didn't
read that section yet, but you probably used, you probably already did it. You probably
already translated into Mike's speech.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, totally. Yeah, there's no, I did. I did.
AJ Harper: I mean, you might talk about how f freaking cool it is. You might say that's like,
and then...
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AJ Harper: I can just, when I'm working on stuff with you, you know, it's coming. I just, it's
like I can hear you say it and I hear your voice, your actual voice, not just I'm your writing
voice.
Mike Michalwicz: I'm sorry.
AJ Harper: No, I love it. I, it's, I can do an impression of you when we're,
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, we should do that. We should start the next episode. You do an
impression of me.
AJ Harper: Oh, God.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh, no.
AJ Harper: But, but, um, you, so you can take the research and say, here's this cool research.
This is how it actually,
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: You know, plays out. Why is this one thing?
This is, I didn't put this in the outline for this, but I think this is important. Tell people why
you're psyched about the research. You know, it's just so funny how we present things almost
like it's school.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: But why don't you just say, I was in my sauna.
Mike Michalowicz: Right.
AJ Harper: Watching PBS-- No comments. Don't picture it. Like I'm doing the Don't
visualize. Don't visualize. You're doing it. You're doing it. Yeah. That's how you would write
it. I can already see. Exactly. Right, right. I can already see your parentheses. 'cause you love
a parenthetical.
Mike Michalowicz: I love parenthetical.
AJ Harper: I keep removing the parentheticals. Yeah, I know.
Mike Michalowicz: I know. I'm even trying to remove them on my own.
AJ Harper: Anyway, I can already see it. You're looking, you're looking. Stop looking. And
then you would say, Oh, and that's when it hit me. Oh, and you could just, why don't you
write that in the book? People? Yeah. Instead of just saying, here is the research.
Just say, this is what I found. And isn't it cool. And look how it lines up with that. And yeah.
Oh my goodness.
Mike Michalowicz: I'll make it even more. Mike, this is the exact words I put. I'd put weird
moments happen when you're, when you're sweaty, dot, dot, dot, and nude. Like that's what I
would know.
AJ Harper: You also love the ellipses.
Mike Michalowicz: I love the ellipses. No. And you would clean that up. I would take them
out and you probably remove the nude. No, you may not.
AJ Harper: I won't take the nude out.
Mike Michalowicz: You won't. I'll say weird things happen when you're sweaty and nude
dot. And then what's interesting. I just got an email. Was it yesterday? Doesn't matter.
Over the weekend, from a reader who said they couldn't stop laughing reading Profit First,
and that's their first experience in a financial book, uh, of having a joyful release. Yeah,
joyful. Joyful. Yeah, and they said this is the best book I've ever read.
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: I'm looking at Made for Money, and we haven't done those.
AJ Harper: You just did it.
Mike Michalowicz: That's one of the things I want to use, but we haven't.
AJ Harper: You just said the title.
Mike Michalowicz: Oh that's okay. I said two weeks ago, it may not be, it may not be the
title. Let's just
AJ Harper: say it because, um, it's coming out in a year anyway.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: And it's probably not going to be the title. That's my bet. I'm going to wager now
that it's not the title.
Mike Michalowicz: My mother, I, my mother was asked how's the book going. I said, there's
an alternative title. She liked the alternative better.
AJ Harper: Is it the one I came up with?
Mike Michalowicz: Yours. Yeah.
AJ Harper: Okay. Don't say that one.
Mike Michalowicz: No, I won't. I won't. And then she, she said, well, I asked her why.
AJ Harper: I think that’s better.
Mike Michalowicz: Why? She said, well, Made for Money sounds like you have to be rich
from the start. I'm like, no, it's a double entendre, like you're designed for money.
AJ Harper: You’re explaining it too much already.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And so, um
AJ Harper: Okay, so the title we've been kicking around is Made for Money.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Go for it. Sorry, I interrupted you and I don't even remember what you were
saying.
Mike Michalowicz: I don't think there's enough of those humor moments as I'm going
through the manuscript. I really do well with a manuscript once we have it just to sit on it
slowly as opposed to racing through it. And what I'm noticing now, it's really when I read the,
I read chapters one or intro through Three, probably seven times now. And now I'm like, Oh,
okay, now I'm starting to kind of get into the vibe of it. And it doesn't have that humor like it
did in Profit First and so many other books, I noticed the arc of the edge, like Toilet Paper,
Entrepreneur, Surge, very edgy Pumpkin Plan.
AJ Harper: I'm gonna play with funny. Funny. What are you talking about?
Mike Michalowicz: No, the edge. I got the edge of humor.
AJ Harper: Oh,
Mike Michalowicz: and I'm like Oh the humor isn't there anymore And it doesn't need that it
doesn't need that same edge But the humor isn't in this one like it was and even an All In so
I'm like, hmm
AJ Harper: That's because you That stuff gets woven in as you revise.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, so I think the nude scene now,
let's see if it makes it in sauna and, uh, sauna, sweaty nude. At least you remember that
because the books it's been volleyed to you. So when you get to that, do you think it fits? Uh,
what about sighting material?
AJ Harper: Just do it. That's my main thing.
Mike Michalowicz: How do you do it? Footnote? Within the content? End note?
AJ Harper: Oh, well, I think it's very formal to use a footnote and I think it's daunting to
people. We talked about how a book feels too dense or difficult. If I see Uh, the bottom of the
page has five footnotes. I almost don't even want to read the page. So, if you're writing for a
more mainstream audience, chuck them in the back. It's called endnotes. Endnotes are great.
Use them and then use footnotes like we use footnotes. Which is for funny asides.
Mike Michalowicz: Yes.
AJ Harper: That, by the way, we have none of those.
Mike Michalowicz: No, yeah, I know.
AJ Harper: Oh but I have one!
Mike Michalowicz: Good.
AJ Harper: Because, in chapter three, there's the Donna Lim story. (Yeah.) And I had
originally started it, because the, she's got this, um, line where she says, the first time I met
Mike, I shook his hand and said, I hated your book.
So I started off the chapter like that. I was like, that's great. But then I was like, oh no, it's
really about the scene at the table where she and her kids are trying to decide what, um, the
car, what they're going to cut.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Because they are going to be homeless.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. And they're talking about living in a car.
AJ Harper: Yeah, but it's, it's, there's this scene from the, my interview with her at the, at the
dining room table that I really want. It's like, no, I have to start with that because it's about
your financial season.
Mike Michalowicz: So much better. Yeah.
AJ Harper: But then I was like, Oh, footnote is funny footnote. The first time I met Donna
Lim, she said, I hate, so that then the footnote can be, I hated this book, but yeah, leave the
footnotes for asides or for quick little references about maybe additional, um, services you
provide or things like that.
Mike Michalowicz: Great, interesting story about Donna Limm. She was not only didn't, not
only did she hate the book, which was, she literally hated the book. She was publicly reticent.
She was talking negatively about the book.
AJ Harper: And the book being Profit First, and she's now a huge, huge fan ambassador,
Mike Michalowicz: Which points to the, a, the courage to go back on what you said in the
past and reevaluate. So that, that takes huge courage. I think most people, I don't know if I
have that courage to say I was totally wrong and publicly wrong without a justification for it.
She says that I was just wrong.
AJ Harper: No, she had a justification.
Mike Michalowicz: No, no, no. Now she says I was, you know, she doesn't have a. She goes,
I was, it was wrong at the time she did, but I'm saying now she's like, this is the right way.
AJ Harper: Yes.
Mike Michalowicz: So that takes a lot of courage. Yes. And now she's our probably our
most, one of our most vocal supporters. ld
AJ Harper: Yeah, I love her. She gave, she told a great story. And that was research. (Yep.)
Interviewing her.
Mike Michalowicz: I love her. Do you ever cross check research?
AJ Harper: Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Make sure it's like multiple sources.
AJ Harper: We've got so much crazy stuff happening now with people and their so-called
research. So you really got to. (Yeah.) If the stakes are high, you got to check it out. I think I
would evaluate it like that. You know, not, not all, you know, you talking about the
chronometer, this is not high stakes.
Talking about, say, vaccines? For example, right?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. High stakes.
AJ Harper: Are... Should women vote?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah.
AJ Harper: Okay. These are high stakes, high stakes. So to crosscheck, figure out who's,
who authored this study? Who paid for this study? Yeah. Is this, you know, D does this really
respected. Don't forget that you can have the American Medical Association and then you can
also have the American Doctors Association.
Which one are you listening to?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, and does, um, the publisher, if you have a publisher, do they do
some fact checking?
AJ Harper: No, that's all you, buddy.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay.
AJ Harper: Yeah,
Mike Michalowicz: I do remember, though, in our manuscripts getting fact check, they'll just
highlight something, say fact check, but maybe that's not,
AJ Harper: It's a so basic fact check. It'll be something like, is that name spelled correctly?
Mike Michalowicz: More? Yes. Okay.
AJ Harper: Yes. It is not their job to make sure your research is accurate. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. And it's not their liability either. Okay.
AJ Harper: That's in the contract.
Mike Michalowicz: Okay. Um, any other things we are, Okay. Talk about
AJ Harper: um, I want to just point out if you are working. This might seem tangential, but
it's not if you're working with a ghostwriter or someone like me. We're collaborating.
Research is time consuming. Finding it. Processing it, culling it down into something usable
for readers, figuring out if you need this one or that one, or a combination. All that is so much
extra work, so you need to be respectful of that.
It is not quick. It is not easy. That ghostwriter has to process all of it, figure out if it goes
there, figure out how to use it, make sure that it's the right source. It's a lot. So, um, just be
mindful that it's very different when you have a lot of research in your book. And so it might
cost more or take longer.
Mike Michalowicz: We uh, appreciate being here. Thanks to Lauren, Ansa, uh, and, and
you, our listeners, please keep writing us. We, we love getting support. I'm still on this
mission for us to do a live show.
AJ Harper: I mean, I hear from people in my own community, in my top three community,
they're ready to go.
Mike Michalowicz: To our live show? Do they want--
AJ Harper: I mean, we've maybe got like 12 people now.
Mike Michalowicz: I don't know. That's that's almost selling out a classroom like that. We
can go to his local school. That's half a classroom.
AJ Harper: Yeah
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, I want to do a live show. I think that would just be so
AJ Harper: I'm I really think we're gonna do one
Mike Michalowicz: I think so now too.
AJ Harper: And that's where I I got a message from Selena Selena. Sue.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah
AJ Harper: Saying hey, you know, I'd love to be on the podcast and I have to email her back
and say we don't do guests on the podcast but—I know—but... See, she'd be, so I, my theory
is we do a live broadcast, well not, we could broadcast it live, but we do the
Mike Michalowicz: Live to tape recording at the show. Yeah.
AJ Harper: Yeah, but that's where we have guests.
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah. Well Steven Pressfield.
AJ Harper: That's where we have Steve.
Mike Michalowicz: That's where Steve. Yeah.
AJ Harper: But we could also bring in Selena.
Mike Michalowicz: Sure.
AJ Harper: Yeah. So what I'm saying is that's where we the guests should come.
Mike Michalowicz: You know, maybe nice maybes do one of your live edits I don't know
that may be too time consuming or something like that
AJ Harper: A live edit?
Mike Michalowicz: Just so you can people can sample how you work with people. I don't
know.
AJ Harper: In a, on like on a big old school projector from the 80s?
Mike Michalowicz: Yeah, I see there's a theater across the street here in Boonton called the
Daris Theater and it's one of the oldest theaters that has, it's actually one of, I think only three
left. When you enter, you come in under the stage and the stage is behind you.
So you come in under Up and go back. It smells musty and gross. I mean, that sounds great.
It's perfect for us. It's just, it's yeah. And they usually have the old crank. They still have the
crank, um, with projector. So you hear a plane in the background and you're pointing to
things. I think that'd be cool.
All right. All right. My friends, our next episode, we're going to talk about using advanced
reader feedback to build marketing momentum. This is something that we do. Um, I think to
great effect, uh, our website is dwtbpodcast. com. Just like our folks who shouted out this, uh,
this earlier this morning. Well, earlier in this episode, you can email us too at hello at
dwtbpodcast.com. Regardless of your age, can we hear from a nine year old and just in the subject line, put
the word writer's lab. If you're interested in learning more about that, AJ has got such
powerful resources available for you. If you haven't started with reading her book. Get it right
now. It's right. A must read it's available on Amazon or at your favorite indie bookstore.
Thanks for joining us for today's episode. We'll see you next week. And as always, don't
write that book, right? The greatest book you can.