In this first of two parts episode, AJ and Mike answer another reader email in which they’re asked to explain how authors know when they’re “done.” How much outlining is enough? When does one know when their fundamentals are right? What about self-editing? Our duo tackles these tough questions with clear examples so authors know when it’s okay to move on to the next big thing in writing their must-reads.
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AJ’s Authorship Planning Workshop
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Episode 107: “You’re Done, Part One”
Mike Michalowicz:
Welcome back to the Don't Write That book podcast where you can learn how to write your bestseller and own your authorship. Follow along with us as we give you an insider's view of the book industry. Now, here are your hosts. Myself, Mike Michalowicz and AJ Harper.
Mike Michalowicz:
AJ, this is a miracle moment. We're starting five minutes after the hour. Because we're sorting out the technical stuff. The very first time with our new setup here that we were trying to sort out the tech stuff. I think it was three or four hours. And me like throwing punches at the wall. You saying calm down.
AJ Harper:
That was when you set up the whole system though.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh my God. You know, you, it's, I guess it's like any other thing, like, you know, that's what I used to do for a living was the tech stuff. So I'm like, I still got this. No, if you don't practice it, you lose the skill.
AJ Harper:
Mm. Well, how's your studio coming, your in-house studio?
Mike Michalowicz:
We took the carpet out yesterday. So this is, uh, well actually we're swimming for our listeners right now. Um, we have a YouTube channel, so you can see us live and you can see the great attire that I wear, um, when recording this early in the morning. So check us out on YouTube, just email us at uh, hello@dwtbpodcast.com. We can send you details, but, uh, look for, Don't Write That Book on YouTube and you get see video of us. So we gotta start dressing up. So,
AJ Harper:
I mean, I did, I did wear something different today. Normally I don't care
Mike Michalowicz:
You a sweat. Is that a sweater? It's a little grainy on my side.
AJ Harper:
No, that's a nice shirt I on.
Mike Michalowicz:
No, it's pretty, it's pretty.
AJ Harper:
Thank you.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, so this, where I'm right now is my home office, which is not the podcast studio. My son's old bedroom is going to become a podcast studio and we just tore the carpet out. And then starting in November, myself and the buddy are gonna start doing the changes, but we're really gonna soundproof it. So the walls are coming down and special soundproofing is going in. But also we're putting at least the plan is these little, um, I don't know what they're called. I'm gonna say grommet. They're definitely not grommet, but there's something that goes through or into the sheet rock holds the sheet rock to the stud behind it, but takes the vibration. So when there's sound, it vibrates the sheet rock vibrates very mildly as opposed to allowing the sound to come through. The ultimate test is when the dog is upstairs running around, barking at a deer that's coming by is, um, is do I not hear 'em?
Mike Michalowicz:
So I wanted to share one thing when we're starting out here, uh, this is for our YouTube folks. Check this out. So I got an upgrade this morning for, uh, maybe it's a little bit blurry, but this is a flight I have coming up and there's an interesting emotion that goes through me when this text comes through. It's like, you've been upgraded the first class for your flight on United. And it's like, oh, that's cool. I used to AJ, when I get on a plane, I would be and moaning to myself, oh, those people in first class, they're so rich, you know? Oh, now I realize those are the most miserable people because all they do is fly all the time. And you get this gratis upgrade because you're spending so much stupid money with United 'cause you fly all the time. So, uh, next time you board an airplane and you see all these people in first class, they're miserable. That's my tip, tip of the day.
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
Lay it on me
AJ Harper:
On January 16th and 17th. I'm doing an authorship planning Mastercraft, but it's different. So I usually do this every year, Mike. It's like a four-hour deep dive helping people figure out how to plan their year based on their authorship goals and making time for each component, book development, writing, editing, seeking a publisher, marketing, and then also monetization and other things. So what people don't understand is that there's so many components to authorship. And then they freak out because they can't figure out, wait, how am I supposed to make time for all this? And then they also end up basing that decision on these weird, arbitrary goals that they don't understand how to set in the first place. So they just pick random numbers, like, I'm gonna try and sell this many books. I'm gonna try and do it this way, and then follow what other people do. And it's just all a mess.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
And by the, by the end of the year, they either haven't accomplished their goals or they're exhausted or super disappointed. But honestly, mostly all three
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh,
AJ Harper:
Wow. Um, which he was delighted to. We have this tradition when I come to Minneapolis, he picks me up at the airport, takes me to my rental car, 'cause I'm cheap. I don't wanna get the rental car at the airport 'cause I wanna save 24% in taxes. So my dad picks me up, drives me to the Enterprise in St. Paul at this dinky little Enterprise that they know me now. And then we always go to the Original Pancake House.
Mike Michalowicz:
The original,
AJ Harper:
It's this, there's this restaurant in Minneapolis and St. Paul called the Original Pancake House.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Okay.
AJ Harper:
And they have Panna Coens there. Have you ever had a pucking?
Mike Michalowicz:
I've not.
AJ Harper:
It's, it's like a Dutch baby. You had a Dutch baby?
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Yeah. It's like pancakes in an oven basically, if I remember correctly.
AJ Harper:
No, it's not Pancakes in an oven. I'm gonna make it for you sometime.
Mike Michalowicz:
I know. I've had it. Is there filling?
AJ Harper:
No.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay, then I'm okay. Maybe, um,
AJ Harper:
I mean you could have it. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay.
AJ Harper:
But anyway, I went with my dad to Original Pancake House and perfected the math on my formula on a yellow, on a yellow pad .
Mike Michalowicz:
From airport to the enter the dinky enterprise. You and your father.
AJ Harper:
Original Pancake House is where we worked it out. Oh,
Mike Michalowicz:
That's where we worked it out.
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
So the dates are January,
AJ Harper:
January 16th and 17th. The authorship planning workshop. Okay. I'm also bringing in a but, uh, mastercraft, sorry. I'm also bringing in a bunch of authors who are gonna talk about how they balance all that out. Um, some of my authors, some authors that are in fiction, some are in nonfiction, and, uh, they're gonna be talking about how do they balance their time daily, weekly, for the year. How do they plan based on their goals? It's gonna be amazing. And I wanna give the, don't write that book listeners a $50 off the fee to come so they can use the code DWTB.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Where and what website do they go to to sign up?
AJ Harper:
AJ harper.com.
Mike Michalowicz:
AJ harper.com. Use DWTb and similar to your ride from the airport to the dinky enterprise, you're saving 24% or whatever it is in tax. You're saving 50 bucks. Yeah,
AJ Harper:
I'm gonna save 50 bucks.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. I would like to, uh, attend that. I gotta check my calendar. Um, that's awesome. Oh,
AJ Harper:
You wanna, you wanna come so you can plan your year? You are so good at planning it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, but still, like I, I was meeting with some business owners, um, this past week in Denver and, um, there this exercise, you pick what kind of, what mode you're in right now. And it was a baby or a teenager or, uh, an owl for your business. And I picked the baby. And they're like, what are you being like, facetious, are you baby? Yeah. And I said, no, I, I'm just so curious. I think babies are so curious. They're looking at everything in wonder. And I said, I I, I never wanna leave this stage of wonder. Oh. Um, and so I, I am curious about attending your event because I am sure I will discover things that I don't know. I'll have realizations about myself. Um, it'll just improve my book writing across
AJ Harper:
You probably can't attend it though. I'm gonna tell you why.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh. Why
AJ Harper:
You have a book coming out?
Mike Michalowicz:
I do. A week later. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
Can you imagine? Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, hey, hey. I can't talk right now. Um,
AJ Harper:
But, um, everybody, by the way, you can pre-order the money habit right now. Yes. So we hope, we hope you do that at your preferred retailer. Yes. You know what I wish people would do? I wish people would go into their indie bookstore and order it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yes. I I was talking with indie bookstores yesterday. I was talking with, um, fiction addiction in, oh, I can't remember where she was based out of. Um, and we're talking about the struggle in the bookstores have, which actually may be an interesting conversation at some point. But let's get into today's me and potatoes, I guess. So I wanna talk about Steve Pressfield. Uh, did you see, did you see that link I sent you?
AJ Harper:
You are the third person to send it to me. Okay, good.
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, among
AJ Harper:
It's the Huberman episode.
Mike Michalowicz:
The huberman episode. Really fascinating 'cause it's a perspective you don't typically get. Uh, and we have some updates I wanna share on the money habit, but let's kick into it. So for our listeners, you're listening to, don't write that book. My name is Mike Michalowicz. I'm co hosting with my writing partner, AJ Harper. Um, we today are gonna tackle how do you know when you're done? And I think what's so interesting about this episode is we were prepping for it. My thought was the entirety of the book, which is true. But it's also, when are you done with different phases and stages?
Mike Michalowicz:
I, one of the worst sales traits a sales person can have is when they oversell, like the sale has been made, and then they continue to sell and they actually unwind the sale. And I see this in books. The, the book is almost there, or it's there and then we over polish it and it loses luster. That's my perception. Uh, before we kick it off, one thing I appreciate about you is the breadth. B-R-E-D-T-H of your vocabulary. Uh, AJ.
AJ Harper:
Oh, it's not that, it's not really that great, actually. Thank you though.
Mike Michalowicz:
Uh, yeah, well, no, it is. I was, it's a lot greater than mine. So maybe a admiration is a form of comparison. Um, but there's a couple of elements around that I admire. One is you can pull one word from your mind and experience that represents three or four words is in a phrase. So it makes sentences tighter. Uh, you just speak much more coherently than than myself or, or many people I know. So, just wanted to share that.
AJ Harper:
That's nice. Thank you. Um, I wanna say I admire you for taking, taking on new things with this money habit launch. I was, we were in the runway, um, meeting with page two yesterday. And you were in your car. It was, it was a rough day. But I just, I'm, I I'm impressed with how much you've, how much you've adapted to this. You have way more pre-orders than you've ever had.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. This, especially, it's early on. 'cause as of this recording, the book is still, uh, three, four months out. So
AJ Harper:
Yeah. You, you guys are killing it. But one of the things that I think you do, and this, you're not just doing it this time, but you do it every time, is you will adapt, you will find a new way, um, try new things. And it's just cool to see how excited everyone at page two is. And they're getting to see how you, how you are. You know? And I don't think that you always had that kind of regular feedback from other publishers.
Mike Michalowicz:
Nice to see. I have not. I have not. It was fun to see the joy on Leslie Moodle's face, who's leading this. Like, she's like, you wouldn't believe
AJ Harper:
This.
Mike Michalowicz:
We're at, yeah. I'll give the update at the very end. How many books, uh, we have already worked.
AJ Harper:
I like that people are see you and, and get you and Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Nice. These guys crazy. It's working.
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
Um, okay. Thank you for sharing that stuff. Um, I usually say at the end, lemme say it right now, go to aj harper.com immediately apply that code. Is there a limited number of seats or is it unlimited? No. Okay, good. It's unlimited. Alright. So you can,
AJ Harper:
You're guaranteed to get it. This is not normal for me.
Mike Michalowicz:
You're guaranteed to get it. But use that code. Don't, don't. And don't give it to a non listener. If you're gonna share that code and say, got secret code, you can get 50 bucks. Do me a favor. Make sure they're subscribed to. Don't write that book. Alright. We, we received a request. Why don't you set, set the stage here for us? Or you.
AJ Harper:
Well, you know, when I'm, when I'm chatting with my students or the people in my membership community, I often say, Hey, what do you, what do you guys want us to talk about on Don't write that book? Because they're avid listeners. They're every single week mandatory listening. So thank you to everybody who does that. We really appreciate it. But I will often ask, Hey, what do you ask to have, you know, what do you want us to talk about so we get some good ideas? And this came in, this started a whole discussion about wondering when, when are you done with certain components? And, um, so we're gonna be talking about it in two different episodes. This one's more about the book. But then, uh, other people started talking about, well, wait, a how does this apply to marketing? So this started off with Kristen Wheeler and Alaina King, who are two of my students wondering, how do you know you're done with different components? And they each had different aspects, but we'll get into them on this episode. And I think it's a worthy discussion. You can get stuck worrying that you have to keep staying this one stage of working on the book and then you never get out of it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. And, and I think that's the best way to break it down. Go through stages. I wanna show something. Whoops. This is, uh, on my wall. So check this out here for our YouTubers. You'll get, this is the money you have
AJ Harper:
Deadlines. Oh, the, from the email.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. Mm-hmm
AJ Harper:
I mean, sure. Set. You also also have to set some of your own. They can, they can also backfire on you if you're set of being too aggressive in the development phase. But keep in mind that we still, we to get to even get that schedule. You and I had about a year and a half of work before we got the schedule.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah, yeah, that's true. So let, let's go through the different stages. Um, in the notes here, you have book development. That's the first major state.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. So that's when you're, I have an idea for a book. So you wanna get your, you know, who's it for and what's your core message and what's the promise? And, and outlining is part of that and, and, um, thinking it through. And that's a, that's its own process. A lot of people rush through it, and a lot of people also get stuck trying to tinker when wordsmithing, you know, one word for another and then get stuck in that trap. But, so it's both people rush too fast, but then they also can get stuck worrying that it's not perfect.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. So maybe to know when we're done, like, how do you know you're rushing too fast? Or when do you know it's not done for book development? What's missing? And then when do you know it is done?
AJ Harper:
Okay, so here's where people are rushing too fast with book development. They are not, uh, they don't have as much knowledge about their reader as they think they do. When, when I'm teaching and I ask people to come up with a, what I call a reader statement, um, and I challenge them on it, and then they don't have the answers for my questions, that means they need to go back and learn more about their reader. Do a poll, do a survey, um, get a focus group together, something, look at your notes from the people that you serve. We make assumptions about what our reader wants and what our reader thinks is getting in their way. We superimpose what we think it is and what we want for them. And so when you can't actually answer, is this what they would say they want? Like, for example, with the money habit, we spent a lot of time, do they want financial freedom? Oh, wait, no, that's a, that's the other audience. That's the entrepreneur audience. That's right.
Mike Michalowicz:
Right. That's right.
AJ Harper:
That's not what the general public looking for help with personal finance is wanting. And we settled on people who don't wanna worry about money.
Mike Michalowicz:
Ha ha. Hands down. That was the overarching demand or desire. And uh, it's contrary to me, the author of the Entrepreneur, at least my relationship with money, is I want to have financial freedom, which means to, to not worry about bills at any time, never have to worry about bills. But also to be able to be, uh, living in a way that's carefree financially enough that I can just say, oh yeah, let's do that. Let's, let's fly down to the islands or something. And the people we are interviewing, the majority said, I just, I just wanna make sure that my mortgage is taken care of and I'm living this particular lifestyle. And I don't wanna have that worry. I've now been speaking on stage about it with regularity and I relate it to tinnitus. So we have in the book this ringing in the ears, and we want that squelched. We, we want that worry, that low level consistent, almost subconscious worry to go away. That was the lesson we learned. A any other kind of things we need to check off the list to make sure we have that included in the book development.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Well, usually people, uh, get core message wrong and they move too fast through it. Um, core message is, um, perspective shift. And it's usually something that defies conventional wisdom. But I'm really hardcore about core message. I think that you also, it needs to some be something that's transformational on its own. And so people tend to, first of all, they don't know what it is. They confuse it with other things like taglines, promises, elevator pitches, book summaries, mission statements. It's none of those things. It's this perspective shift. And so it takes a while to get that right. It could take a few weeks of actively working on it. But once you get it, once you get the essence of it, oh yeah. That's the perspective shift where you can get stuck. How do you know you're done? Well, if, if a person can repeat it easily, if it's clear and easy to understand, a person can repeat it easily.
AJ Harper:
And it can be transformational on its own. But where you're gonna get stuck is if you try and trade one word for another. You just wordsmithing. Well, let me, is it robin's egg blue? Or is it navy blue? You know? No one cares. It's blue. No one cares. So is you can get caught up in, should it be exactly this word or that word. Um, so the words do matter in the sense that it, it has to be clear. But, uh, people get a little bit stuck, twisting, and turning. It doesn't, if the ultimate meaning doesn't change and it's really clear, then don't, don't get stuck there. Just keep going.
You can always tinker later. And sometimes when you're writing, you'll, you'll tweak it later. So keep, keep going.
Mike Michalowicz:
I like that word, the phrase you said, when it can be transformational on its own. That's a great acid test. And it sounds like once it can be transformational on its own, you're there. And then there's this over tweaking. I find when it comes to different courses, I've taken professional courses, you know, through the internet or, or in person or provided them, there's a certain contingency of students who never feel they have enough knowledge and there's almost a safety net in learning more, as opposed to applying and doing or moving on. It's, it's that kid in college who's like, I'm a senior my 10th year. I'm a 10th year senior.
AJ Harper:
Mike Michalowicz:
Do you see that happening? That is is a, why don't people move on maybe is the question.
AJ Harper:
Huh? They're just fear. They're just afraid.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah. That's, that's my question. They're just afraid.
AJ Harper:
Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Just afraid. Afraid of the next step. I think afraid of being out there in the wild or whatever the next step is.
AJ Harper:
Listen, writing a book is more confronting than almost anything. It challenges you in ways that speaking doesn't. Speaking is always heralded as this, you know, core fear. But I think writing a book brings up way more,
Mike Michalowicz:
There's one other activity, at least for me that's as confronting. And it's when I am looking through the refrigerator and can't find the ketchup. And I go, Hey hun, where's the ketchup? And she comes over and she goes, oh my God. And it's literally right in front of my eyes, my hand's resting on top of the cap. And I'm like, where is it? She's not happy.
AJ Harper:
This happens to me as well. Except I'm in your wife's role.
Mike Michalowicz:
You're not an oat milk drinker. Oh God, no. And she's been, you've been married how long?
AJ Harper:
She's Um, I'm trying to remember. 27, 20 like a year after you, how long have you been married?
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, we're, we're 27. So you're you're 26.
AJ Harper:
26.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, I'm sorry. My, I'm sorry. You are 27
AJ Harper:
Turned 28. I said when you're 28.
Mike Michalowicz:
We said 28. Yeah. Okay.
AJ Harper:
Oh my gosh. At any rate. Okay. Okay. So, so I just have to tell you this. I, I said, why didn't you put half and half? And she said, 'cause it's not in the fridge. I said, it's in the fridge. She said, it's, I looked everywhere. I said, it's, well, she said, where is it? I said, right in front of your face. Right on the middle of the main shelf right there.
Mike Michalowicz:
The one that says half and half the words on it.
AJ Harper:
Right. Right on the edge. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Isn't that funny? We you,
AJ Harper:
Why, why don't you see it? I wanna know. Why don't you see it? It's literally right in front of your face.
Mike Michalowicz:
That's so funny.
AJ Harper:
Anyway, so, um, book development's done, move on. Move, move on from your book development. Yeah. When you feel like you know your reader very, very well. Okay. And you have a message that's easy to communicate that doesn't require a explanation, easy to repeat and transformational on its own. Move on. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz:
Nailed it. Of now gimme the next part,
AJ Harper:
Part of book, but part of book development is also testing your content. Okay. So people can get caught up in that a little too much. Testing your content. I wish more people would do it. Mike,
Mike Michalowicz:
Gimme an example of what you mean by that.
AJ Harper:
So you can test, for example, those reader statements and core messages as well where you can get people to, you know, give you feedback on what resonates with them. But, you know, I'm talking about frameworks, processes, systems. You are very good at testing to see does this work? Where is it difficult? Where are you getting too complicated? I'd say your Achilles heel, Mike, is that you are fine with a lot of complicated steps. You're you're good with that.
Mike Michalowicz:
Agreed. I, I think the best example of that in our work together was fix this next. Yes. In that, the challenge I have is once the complexity becomes clear, I'll let the complexity stay. Right. So, right. So I'm like, oh, I get it now. So this, this makes sense. 'cause I, my assumption is if I get it, anyone can get it. Um, the challenge, I don't know if you asked me to do this or I decided to do it, but I went to an entrepreneurial group with our question. So we had 25, 30 questions that they answer. We can identify what's wrong in their business. And so this group, I said, Hey, I wanna run a quick test. I'm gonna give this to everybody. And once you complete it, we'll identify what you need to fix in your business. And they're all business owners. So like, oh, that sounds great. I said, would you please do this? And so I handed out the paper and everyone diligently looks down, it's like a third grade class test. One of the teacher's looking around and I'm like, is anyone cheating? And about a minute into it, one person puts their pen down and starts, starts scrolling through their phone. Another person walks away, chatter starts happening. I'm like, what's going on here? Did we finish it that fast? Most people got not even a third through and just gave up on it. And it's like, ugh.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. And the other people were angry with you and
Mike Michalowicz:
Some people got angry. Yeah. And this is like ridiculous. And it's time consuming, which is exactly what you want. The feedback, it's painful. It's painful. But it's exactly the feedback you want. And the, we, we radically improved the system from that point forward.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. So what you wanna do is test those things. And you did that with the money habit by Oh yeah. You know, deploying it, long-term testing. Yes. Deploying it, teaching it. Where are there problems that I think that's really helpful to do before, um, you are trying to put forth a framework. It's frustrating to me when people say, well, I don't, I don't, I've only worked on this with myself. Okay, well you, you gotta you gotta put it out into the world a little bit so you can get, how do you know you're done when you have enough proof that what you're doing works for people, you need to be able to see some sort of result.
Mike Michalowicz:
I interviewed a mathematician for one of the books we did together and she explained to me, I think it was just for get different, um, she explained that once to get statistical or mathematical significance, you gotta test 10% of a population. So if there's a thousand people that potentially
could buy from you and you wanna see if your new ad works, you gotta see if a hundred people bite on that ad. And if you get a high conversion rate, that's indicative that the entire population a thousand will do it. Um, and you know, the example continues if, if your population is 10,000, um, well you guys, that's a thousand. But for readers, you know, you may have 5 million readers. So that means you have to have what, 500,000 people going through this before.
AJ Harper:
That's not realistic.
Mike Michalowicz:
It's not realistic. Yeah. So, so the next step she said is you, 10% of the population is ideal. She goes, but a minimum sampling as a rough rule of thumb is you gotta try out with a hundred individuals. Period. Uh, and so I was like, oh, that's really a cool, uh, and, and I think many authors, to your point, tested on themselves, their brother-in-law and maybe one other person. Um, so they have to be two or three tests out there. And, and that isn't adequate. Getting to that a hundred person or test threshold is daunting until you start approaching it and you start seeing how much the refining of your content, your system, I should say, improves near the end. I, I found with the money habit, the, the, the, the people that are interested in doing it and going through it, well they're, they're uber fans of the work and they'll just do what I say and they'll, they'll say it is working amazingly just because they want to stay in my good graces, it feels like. But it's what I started kind of breaking past that first group of, of supporters that there's individuals that aren't familiar with me. And, and another thing you did is you brought in people who had never heard of me before and ran a test. And that's where I think the real truth came from.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Well that's, that's what I was gonna say is you, you, if you're gonna do a test, it needs to be on your ideal readers and preferably not people who are super biased, meaning they're really familiar with the content already. But, uh, let's just so you know, when can it get outta hand? You're trying to get bigger, bigger numbers for that. More and more people. Also, you might already have been doing the testing and you don't realize it if you are every day in the trenches with people you're testing.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay.
AJ Harper:
So it took that, that to work.
Mike Michalowicz:
Ask you That's a great point. That's a great point. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. So like I have, um, you know, one of the people who brought this up, Kristen Wheeler, she's doing her work with people on a regular basis, working in corporations, ta talking through all of her systems and processes with them, all of her ideas. And she's getting real time feedback. That's all that needs to happen. It's just when people are creating in a vacuum and they're not testing the content, that's a, that's an issue. But you don't have to go overboard where you're spending years doing it unless it's not working. It might take years if it's not working. You know, you've definitely had, uh, things you're working on that has taken time for you to figure out how to do in a way that can be translated to a book and
Mike Michalowicz:
Useful. Most of the ideas, we started working on a concept. The the bear retreat, the one the bear was in the pond and it was how to sell your business. And I had a core concept, um, that had been tested only in bits and pieces and was more obs observational information than real deployment of this stuff. And it was, it was, it wasn't ready to be baked. It wasn't a, a Dutch pancake or whatever that thing is you're talking about. At least it wasn't, it was a gooey disgusting one. It, I'm continuing to test it. So a few opportunities have presented themselves to help a business through a transaction of selling, um, more are presenting themselves. And so we're testing this content well that goes back when was that three, four years ago? That trip? Um, yeah. I don't think this book will be done likely for another four or five years. I, I, this is a type of process. Selling a business is a, is a long process. And I can't just say, Hey, this weekend let's just run 10 tests on this. They come as say, come and 10 tests may happen over a year or two or or longer. So that's an example of something that just needs to stay in that oven for a long time.
AJ Harper:
But you know what's funny, I mean, sometimes, so I'm working on two books right now
Mike Michalowicz:
And, and you've been so fired up about this and you're so top secret. This is awesome.
AJ Harper:
I'm now, I'm doing two and oh man, there's one thing that I've, I've haven't tested in two completion, but I'm so desperate to get it out that, um, I'm gonna probably just share it. So, and then I'm gonna update it on a regular basis. 'cause that was a big, I now, I'm being cagey right now, but how long am I gonna wait to tell people something that I know is, is working? Yeah. And it's gonna shift them in a major way, even though I don't have good use studies yet. Um, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna do it anyway. So I wanna tell you out there, if you feel confident that this is gonna be a game changer, then there might be some other ways around things. I mean, I think you should test your stuff. I've been testing some of my stuff for a couple of years, but I don't have really good use cases for the book yet.
AJ Harper:
So what I'm doing is I'm working on getting the use cases right now, and here's what I'm gonna do instead of having the use cases in the book. 'cause timing wise, I don't think it's gonna work. I'm gonna be releasing the use cases as additional content in the book and then additional content that it's like a bonus. Sometimes the things that you wanna put in the book, you can't get in the book because the timing doesn't work for when you have to get it out. And so, uh, you can find another way to deliver the thing. So I'm just saying don't let things hold you up from something that, you know, needs to get out into the world.
Mike Michalowicz:
I met with a aspiring author. It's gonna be her first book and she has a profound concept. Uh, we call it, uh, a ride back to the airport together. This is just a couple days ago. And I said, what's the profound concept? And she shared it with me and it is profound and I don't want to, to spoil it 'cause it's, it's like an Occam's razor type thing. Very simple, but transformative. And I'm like, wow, most authors won't freely share it. She's like, well, that's stupid. She's like, I'm testing. She goes, what's, what's your thoughts? And we then she analyzed me in this drive back. She had like 14 questions and she's taking notes. She pulls out her voice recorder. I'm like, oh, so smart. Um, I think there's a fear. I think, I think we've talked about this a lot in the past. Maybe a full episode on the fear of putting content out there. Um, she was the exact opposite. She was testing, um, and playing around with it. When do you know you're done? When, when are we moving on to the next stage
AJ Harper:
With te with testing?
Mike Michalowicz:
Well, No, I didn't know. Back to the outline you're talking about. So I'm sorry, I kind of completed,
AJ Harper:
Oh, now we're in the outline. So this was actually, um, one of the questions Alaina King had. And, uh, because she's wondering, she wants to, uh, she did her outline, then she's writing, then she has feels the urge to go back and tweak the outline. And she's wondering, is that okay? And how much of that, how much of that tinkering is just too much where you're getting stuck in outline land? I think if you are write the outline and you take the time to write an expanded transformational outline, I'm talking super detailed and you've really thought about the reader journey, then you sit down and write, but you feel the urge to go back and tweak the outline. I think you should follow the urge. I don't think there's anything wrong. It's just your need to get clarity again and you wanna pull back and get that clarity. I do that when I'm working on books with you or we make some changes. Okay. I need to get a visual on this. I need to see the flow again. Because if you get caught up in the document, it can be overwhelming and sometimes you just need to pull out and see that high level outline. Well, what you don't wanna do is stop writing. So you just, my advice is to just allow time for both in your schedule that that's like, this is my outlining time, but I'm also gonna keep writing.
Mike Michalowicz:
So we produce for the money habit, the lost content. Um, and this is the most comprehensive one ever. Uh, you have what happened? What, so what, what is the lost content? This is stuff that didn't make it to the cutting floor. Um,
AJ Harper:
Yeah, I sent that to you. Right? Did I send that to you?
Mike Michalowicz:
You did. You did. Yeah. Okay. Um, but I also had a collection of stuff like, like this 75 titles that we tried for the book that we considered. Oh cool. Yeah,
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Oh, that's cool. I didn't know you were gonna add that too.
Mike Michalowicz:
It's me. Yeah. So we really, this is the best lost content ever. And one of 'em was, I took my, i my handwritten notes in the book, like in the lost content. And one of them is us changing chapters around. So it's, it's scold and scratched. My handwriting is like a doctor, but at least I can read it. And so you see the chapters, and this is while we're actively writing and we're moving entire chapters. And you see me destroy the lines, say, oh yeah, inserts here, inserts there. Um, so an outline is properly baked when it's what, and just reiterate, when do you move on to the next stage, past the outline. Even though you may go back to it
AJ Harper:
When your outline is, uh, respects the reader journey, when your outline has considered then the entire time and when you feel like it's maybe 80% there and you can start writing. Okay. 'cause you're going to, you're going to shift it as you write and you're gonna shift it as you edit. That's normal. That will happen. It's not a sign of anything bad. But if you're feeling the urge to go back and rework it while you're writing, I think you should follow the urge as long as you keep writing. It's as simple as that. Just don't, don't quit writing.
Mike Michalowicz:
This is gold. When it respects the reader's journey to see certain soundbites. You say it's like, oh my gosh, that is, that is it. Um, I hope our listeners write that down. What happens next after the outline?
AJ Harper:
Well, now you're writing and this is where people start to feel like, I don't know when I'm done. Well, okay, so you need to start thinking, I'm just gonna get the words on the page. That's the first draft. There's what you're worried about is editing those words. So that's not, I really make the distinction. I'm just getting words on the page first. So there shouldn't, there should not be anything you're laboring over in that respect.
Mike Michalowicz:
That's a tremendous insight because this was a point of confusion and cause tension in our relationship because we'd have a deadline coming and you're like, it's not ready yet. When you were sending it, you were, you were delivering the most polished perfect. Right? And you, you, the master of this felt uncomfortable sharing something that wasn't fully complete, uh, in your opinion. And then we've, we had discussions around that and now you'll send me stuff that's still in a draft phase, so. And I think it still gives you some kind of aita to be sending this thing over that's not perfect.
AJ Harper:
No, I'm good now.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh good.
AJ Harper:
And I love it. But you know why Mike, but listen, Mike, remember when we met, I was a ghost writer. And there are clients who, if I didn't send them something polished, 'cause they couldn't, they didn't understand the creative process. They didn't understand that it, that I just needed to get some initial feedback and then we're gonna keep going in their mind. That was the thing. That's how it was gonna be. Yeah. That's a great point. And so if I didn't do it, if I didn't send it the be very best I could, then I would get this. I don't think, you know, I don't think you understand my book. Like I do understand your book. I'm just need to get feedback on these two things. Yeah. You know, so I had been, by the time we met in the habit of not, you know, I'm not doing that. Yeah,
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah.
AJ Harper:
But in our relationship it wasn't working because it's a collaborative yin and you know, back and forth,
Mike Michalowicz:
back and forth. Yeah. There's, you deliver. Yeah.
AJ Harper:
But so when we're talking about writing the first draft, just knock that thing out. You, you should not be, how do you know when you're done? When, when you've completed the outline? That's how you know you're done. What people think is, oh, when it's good. It's not gonna be good. It's gonna be just terrible. It's not going to be good.
Mike Michalowicz:
I hope someone listening in writes that down a million times. Don't write to be good. Not at this stage.
AJ Harper:
No. Then it's editing everything after that is editing.
Mike Michalowicz:
I'm gonna show you something. See if I can find it. Um, here it is. So I, I've never shown this before to you. This is my journal. When I, um, back, I started this in around 2008, 2009. I can see it right there is this 2009,
AJ Harper:
That's, I think that's when we started working together. 2008. No. Yeah, yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Right around then. Right around then. But, uh, I started journaling 'cause I was going through depression. Now this is self-diagnosed, but it was functional depression. Um, because of just the monetary situation I put myself in and this whole identity shift and all this stuff. Well, in writing in this, and I rarely go back to it, but there are certain stages. I'm just looking, I'm just dumping. This was on September 6th, 2017. And then just dump, it's just a dump of information or, or stuff. The, the idea of journaling is just to get it out. So it's the cheapest form of talk therapy on the planet. 'cause you just grab a, a pad and you just let it out. It used in why there's, there's literally electric tape covering. This is, it used to say Mike's success journal. That's such a broy mentality. But that's what I thought was what you do, you write down, what did I achieve today? This is a good day and you're actually squashing all the other realities that happened. Well what I find is writing's like, and this took me a while to really appreciate, but writing is like journaling. Just vomit that stuff out, get it all out and don't worry about if it makes sense or something. It's just giving your mind that relief. And in there, like a muddy river, there is specs or sometimes chunks of gold. But if you don't get it all out and you're just trying to filter for it, you'll never get to it.
AJ Harper:
Are we, writing isn't like journaling.
Mike Michalowicz:
To me it is.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. But it's not because journaling is whatever comes to mind when you're writing a book. You are writing to the outline for sure. And so now for, I'm gonna write this story and I'm gonna write this teaching point and I know where roughly where it goes. Journaling is just,
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay, so okay, we're gonna aggressively agree. I think hundred percent agree. It's alignment.
AJ Harper:
I just don't want anybody, like, I'm just gonna journal my book.
Mike Michalowicz:
No. Yeah. Do not write about anything.
AJ Harper:
Don't journal your book please. I'm just saying don't do that.
Mike Michalowicz:
Cor a hundred percent correct,
AJ Harper:
Okay. The ask, that's what you should do. Yeah. Correct. Okay. Alright. I just had a pain. The
Mike Michalowicz:
Moment, what they call that like not aggressive agreement, I guess was the right term.
AJ Harper:
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we're we're saying the same thing. Why do you know with the first draft, what people are confused about is they think they're not done with writing the first draft because they don't like how it reads. They don't think it sounds good. They don't think it's any anybody's gonna read it. Okay. Not, not, you're not far off base. If you were to turn it in right then and turn it into a book, is that's accurate. But you're confusing writing from editing. So you know you're done from with writing when you have completed your outline. Yeah. That's it.
Mike Michalowicz:
That's what I love that. Then what's the next stage?
AJ Harper:
Editing. Okay. And where this is a longer process than people think and it's multifaceted. But you need to do a self-edit before you move on. I had a student ask me, um, why do I need to self edit if I have a publisher? Isn't my editor gonna help me through that process? Well, yes and no, but you need to put your best foot forward with your editor. When if you have a traditional publisher or a top tier hybrid, your editor is gonna do substantive edits. The big picture stuff that make, to make sure that a book actually works, right? But this, there's two passes. There's the first pass where they're doing the really high level moves, right? Then there's the second pass, which has maybe a line edit in it. Okay. Then we're moving on to copy edit. Yeah. Two passes. So your first that, that's it.
AJ Harper:
But to get a book in shape could be many, many, many drafts. So what are you gonna do? Give them a hot mess and you got two passes, but you really still need to bake it longer. You really still have more to do. There's the other factor, which is editors can only do so much, right? We can't, we don't fix every single thing at the same time. So you are limiting the editor's ability to do things if you turn over what we would call as editor's a heavy lift, right? Yep. So, so, um, I want you to do a self edit. I actually have directions on my whole methodology for that in my book, write a must read. There's several chapters on it. So you can take yourself through a sequential process. It's the same process that I use when I'm working on books with you, Mike, or my own book or my students.
AJ Harper:
You just need to follow a step-by-step process of checking everything to make sure that you've done what you need to do so that when you turn into the editor, you've, you're giving them, I've done all I can with my ability. This is the best I can do and I've made sure all these things I need to do are done. And now I'm turning it into you. So you know, you're done editing when you completed that checklist. And again, if you say, what's the checklist, you can literally just go get the checklist from my book. I, the whole thing is in there. If you follow that, I swear to God, you'll be turning in a manuscript where your editor will be like, what the heck? Who's this person? This is gold. 'cause they're used to this. Yeah. So anyway, I, you know, you're done editing when you've completed your checklist of the things that are important for you in this book.
Mike Michalowicz:
You, you put a little jersey there, you're like, I swear to God, I swear
AJ Harper:
I did. I did.
Mike Michalowicz:
You did. You totally did. Um, I consider it in the phrase I've been using for myself, helped, I call it the handoff. So I used to think there were phases, but phases feel like it is too nebulous. So there's a handoff where that baton goes from yourself, the author, the writer to the editor, and now they're running with it. Um, so you gotta give a clean handoff and that's that iterative process. What happens next? What stage are we at now?
AJ Harper:
Well, now you're at substantive edits with your publisher or someone you've contracted with. If you're self-publishing.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. When you know it's done,
AJ Harper:
The good thing is the editor's gonna tell you
Mike Michalowicz:
They're gonna tell you when it's done.
AJ Harper:
They're gonna be like, yeah, we're ready to go to production ready. Or they might say, we're ready to go to copy, edit whatever language they use. This is one of the benefits. Yeah. Writing a book is collaborative and you aren't on your own to make those decisions. Of course. If in your gut you're feeling like something's not right, yeah. You know, you can explore that, but trust some of the experts that you're working with.
Mike Michalowicz:
Trust the gut. Okay. So that's the substantive edit. What's the next stage?
AJ Harper:
Copy Edit.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. When do we know we're done?
AJ Harper:
Um, again, the editor's gonna be like, we're done. Now here's the thing, you can't always count on editor. I've had some bad authors with some bad perspectives or experiences where they had to copy editors where they weren't doing a terrific job. So you just wanna, what you need to do is vet those people as best you can. Um, and if you start to feel like something's off, that's, it's worth talking to your publisher and saying, you know, I feel like they're missing things. Can we have a conversation about this? Um, so, you know, it's not a blanket trust if you're feeling like this isn't, this doesn't seem right to me. But, um, on the whole, you're, you're gonna be done When the copy editor says, okay, we're ready to go.
Mike Michalowicz:
Is there any indicators you're like, oh, this editor is not performing to the standard that I expect.
AJ Harper:
You are seeing things that you think should have been fixed. Okay. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz:
So you can kind of, or
AJ Harper:
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I had a student who had a copy editor, uh, from and from a top tier hybrid, not Page Two. Um, she butchered it. And, now, copy editors are not supposed to take out big chunks of content. That's, they're not supposed to just take a chainsaw to your manuscript. Um, so that was a sign that this person doesn't understand what copy editing is, and we just threw that whole thing out.
Mike Michalowicz:
I, I wouldn't say Page Two is a top tier hybrid. I'd say they are the top tier.
AJ Harper:
Hybrid, well, they top tier is my term. I, I, I had to come up with something for my students to say, who are the hybrids that are selective and run. Run like a traditional publisher versus them, some others that are more like a factory and they take anyone. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
Yeah.
AJ Harper:
Of the top tier hybrids, Page Two is number one,
Mike Michalowicz:
Bar none. Um, it's not even a raise. So, okay, so that's the copy edit, what's the next stage and when, when do we know we're done?
AJ Harper:
So then how do you know you're done with the proofread is the other piece. Okay.
Mike Michalowicz:
So how do you know you're done with the proofread?
AJ Harper:
Okay, this, I wanna say you have gotta double check your stuff. So when, when I get pass pages and I'm looking and comparing, first we give the, the, the notes to them. I, I wanna see it again. I need to see it to make sure that the changes were actually made. And I always find additional problems. Either they didn't make all the changes or when they made the changes and new problems came up. So I check everything. I ask to see it back every time.
Mike Michalowicz:
This is the most surprising thing to me. Not, not in this moment, but as an author, that when a proofread was done, all the edits from the author as collectively submitted back to the publisher, that they actually didn't do all the changes that we asked. And it, it confounded me because it's all documented. It's so easy, but I see it with every publishers. So the, those problems have happened with Penguin, with page two, uh, with large boutique, uh, large firms. Boutique firms. Do you have a, and you're a publisher. You were a publisher, you sold your company. Yeah. What's, why do those edits that are written documented, why do they get missed?
AJ Harper:
Well, so there's a difference between say, one that they choose not to make before, for whatever reason. And, and you, they'll give you an explanation. Yes. And then some that just don't, just aren't made human error, man. Human error. It's just simple. We're just, we're just human beings. Sometimes we, we miss stuff. Yeah.
Mike Michalowicz:
And when you work with a live document, you know, one thing I noticed is we, we do our edits on paper, but you have to submit it now through a PDF and so forth. Uh, uh, when you're changing a word, talking, for example, and you, you add a sentence, you move a sentence, like whole things shift and it, it gets really, really confusing. Um, that process of you of saying, please return, respond with all the edits that were made, I would say maybe less than 5% are missed in some capacity, but maybe like 1% or 2%. Um, and you catch those. And that's significant. It's, it's worth the extra time.
AJ Harper:
It's worth the extra time. So, you know, you're done with your proofread when you've determined that all of the corrections that needed to be made were made.
Mike Michalowicz:
Any other, um, stages that we should address to know when you're done? No. Okay.
AJ Harper:
Get it, sell it, sell it, publish it, put it out in the world.
Mike Michalowicz:
Do it. Yeah. Um, so I wanna do a couple book updates real quick. Yeah. So with the, the money Habit, um, so we, yesterday we had a call. My mom had a little incident. She, uh, was fine and just, just really, she needed the comfort of someone being there. So I was working from my mom's house. She lives down the road from me. And, um, I ran out. I, I, I was there the entire morning. I skipped eating. And so now we had this one call. This the only time I have time to eat, because the other calls I was doing was like interviews and stuff, and you can't have a sandwich in your mouth. Um, so I ran out to get that sandwich while we're doing that call and watching the expressions of the team from page two. So Trena was there, and then there was like, Leslie Oodle was there. Uh, Victoria was there. There was, there was quite a group. And the reporting, now today it, it's important to re to share the recording date. So we're recording this on October 23rd. This probably won't be broadcast a little new year 'cause we, we wanna be intentionally ahead of, of, um, of our rollouts of these episodes. I think.
AJ Harper:
I think that we're in December on this. Yeah,
Mike Michalowicz:
This one's in December. Okay. They're like, this is going so well. So as we produce this show, AJ, I'm taking notes for my own launch. So a couple ideas came outta this. You shared an idea, uh, on marketing a while back, um, that we deployed. You and I had the great debate over bulk
sales, which you dominated. And I therefore took those concepts that you shared and said, we're doing this. We have, is it 5,000 orders at this point? And we're still three months out, um from the launch. So that's a, that's really good. And from the perspective of the publisher, it's extraordinarily good. Uh, we are ordering, as of right now, 16,000 books for the first print run. Just comparatively historically even, uh, my most recent books with Penguin after the success of Profit First was 10,000. They would order in advance. So this is already, um, uh, already cascading, not cascading, already overshadowing that. And they, as we get more and more bulk orders coming in, we haven't even done the big push yet. That may go up. The kind of hack I wanna share a couple things I wanna share also in the marketing. One idea we failed to do, and this was just a total miss by us, it was something you suggested, uh, in an episode that went live. Uh, actually in October. Do you, do you ever listen to our episodes?
AJ Harper:
Wait, I used to because I wanted, I was nervous that it didn't sound good, but I, I have to confess, I don't listen anymore.
Mike Michalowicz:
So I listen, I would say, whoa,
AJ Harper:
Wait, I listened to the hundredth episode because I had to write an email about it. Okay. And then I just about peed my pants listening to it. That's the one where we read the letter.
Mike Michalowicz:
Oh, that's, that's the grandma letter.
AJ Harper:
And a and actually as we're, as we're recording today, it's the hundredth episode release day while we're recording.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. I haven't listened to that one yet. I, I've been, wait, so I listened to one to two episodes that we roll out per month. So about half our shows, not even. But I've been waiting for the grandma one because it's so funny today. But I'll tell you, I'm on an airplane 'cause I'm always on airplanes right now. And that's a blessing of means I'm busy. And it's the one when you do
AJ Harper:
Or I can't believe you got me to do that. It
Mike Michalowicz:
Is so funny. Um, but in one of the episodes that came out in October, you said record audio of the people you actually interviewed. Insert them in the book. We missed that one. Um, because I reached out to Kelsey and she's like, oh my gosh, we did put that in our docket. We didn't do it, but we did record all these different experts, including a few days ago. It was, the last recording we got in was Jean Chatzky, who's famous for her personal finance expertise. She was on the Today Show, I think for 20 years consecutively. She writes for AARP Magazine now. Um, she's adorable. She's gonna come to authors for authors now. She's in
AJ Harper:
Oh, amazing.
Mike Michalowicz:
She's my new best friend and she doesn't even know it.
AJ Harper:
Yeah. This, I was surprised at the questions which we'll share on the next episode. I was surprised at what my students were saying about it. I didn't think, wait, what do you mean? How do you know you're done with your marketing?
Mike Michalowicz:
You're then
AJ Harper:
They explain and
Mike Michalowicz:
Give the gospel. You're gonna give us the gospel on letting perfectionism go. I'm also gonna reveal for our YouTube channel subscribers a, uh, little card that I kept, because I think it's the, for me, it's the funniest card I've ever gotten from one of my children. So that's gonna be the big reveal. And, uh, I wanna remind our guests go to aj harper.com. She's got
and 17th is going to be a transformative experience for you. I'm excited. Yeah, but you gotta sign up. Use that code DW tb. Don't be a schnook and tell everyone else about it, because they're not, they gotta listen to the show to earn that.
AJ Harper:
I mean, you can no tell people, man.
Mike Michalowicz:
Okay. Okay. Tell people you have the permission from the author herself, the creator herself. Um, and please get AJ's book write a must read. And you're, you're listening right now. Do I, Mike, you always pitch the book. I already have a copy. Get a second. Copy
you gotta have one in your travel bag. Have one on your shelf like I do. Uh, right. It's here on the shelf somewhere. It's my, my special autograph section. So it's gotta be right there. Oh, yeah, there it is. So the, oh, I, you can't see where I'm pointing, but in my e in the middle, I have my autograph book section, and it, it, it holds a spot there. I don't read that one anymore. That's the one I wanna just be looking at and reminded of it. So I have another book in my travel bag so I can refer to it.
Mike Michalowicz:
Do the same. And, uh, if you're a entrepreneurial author, we're looking for authors. We just actually signed someone, uh, indirectly through this show, uh, to our imprint. Uh, actually a, a duo team, two authors. Email us at hello@dwtbpodcast.com and use the word simplify on the top. If that's of interest to you. Also visit our website, you know, it's dwtbpodcast.com to get our free materials and sign up for our email list. I want to thank you. I wanna thank you for being here. I wanna thank you for being supportive of our show. I wanna thank you for the questions you submit. This show is just a blast to produce, and we, aj and I hope you are getting so much value out of this. But don't forget this part. If anything else, please don't write that book. There's so many of those that books coming out now. Don't write that book. Write the greatest book you can.